New Butler Owner

[Joeyv]

I already mentioned, in the new member introduction section, the fact that I recently purchased a Butler Cobra (#79). I thought I would post it in the Butler/Arntz forum in case that is proper protocol.
I'm new to Cobras. I just revived the Cobra from 15 years of storage. Yesterday I took it out for a short jaunt to the gas station. I didn't want to go much further on 15+ year old track tires. The short ride was a hoot, and that was only using the first 3 gears, the Tremec feels really tight (in a good way)...I'm looking forward to delivery of new tires so I can shake it out a bit more thoroughly, to see if there are any problems. Only issue right now I'd the trunk smells a little "gas-y". I can't see any leaks, all fasteners are tightened down..more investigation needed. More to come....

[750hp]

Hi Joey. Welcome to the site, and congratulations on your purchase!

Modern fuels can be pretty hard on fuel lines, and often the smell can simply be the fuel evaporating/dissipating out of the lines.

Anyway, should be an easy enough fix either way. You've bought a really great brand. Post up some pictures!

[Ron61]

Joey,

You have a very nice Cobra. And like 750hp said, the so called modern improved fuels can cause several things. Also check your vent line to be sure that it ends where passing air will pull the smell away from the car. I had one one time that I kept smelling gas in the trunk and that was what it turned out to be. The vent line ended just under the trunk, so I extended it down farther and to the side.

Ron

[joyridin']

When I park my Arntz in the garage, I put a piece of plastic between the gas cap and filler and close the cap. In my case, the cap is vented and stinks up the place. This cures that problem.

[Joeyv]

Guys, Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I will check into the possible solutions you mentioned. Here are a couple of pictures of the car:

[Donunder]

Welcome Joey to the Arntz/Butler fraternity. I hope you have many enjoyable and fun-filled miles in your new car.

I looked for a Cobra for years, and my son (750HP) finally located my lovely old 1979 Arntz in Washington state. It looked good in photographs but when it arrived down here in Oz we couldn't believe the superb condition it was in. It runs a fairly mild BBC and I've made some mods to it to more suit my driving needs and now I'm one very happy camper. There are no doubt some very worthy modern Cobras around, but I have to say the charm of a stoutly built old school Arntz just takes my breath away.

You've made a wise choice with this purchase. You won't be disappointed.

[DanEC]

Very nice - lools like it has some serious motor in it. Interesting that when I got interested in building a replica in the late 70s I built what I think is a 1/12 scale Cobra SC model and I painted very close to that same color.

[RallySnake]

Joey,

That looks like the car that Ron Butler used as a display model in his Goleta shop.

The Butler cars are built much stronger than any of the other Cobra's. The primary frame members are 3" by 4" rectangular tubing and they make the car very rigid unlike many replica's or originals. The cockpit is surrounded by steel tubes and the doors have 2" by 4" rectangular tubes running from the hinges to the latches. The fiberglass body's are extra thick and strong, too. If you are ever going to be involved in an accident in a Cobra, the Butler is the best one to be in. The biggest advantage of this extra weight is that it's very low and makes the center of gravity very low. I have had some very hairy experiences in my 29 years of Arntz ownership (the earlier version of the Butler) and it's very difficult to flip the car over.

RS

[Roncal1]

very nice car

[leroy17]

WOW, very nice find.

Cant believe that this was in storage for 15 years, such a shame that it was not getting used.... however I suspect that is about to change.

What are you doing for tires, looks like you got some nice ol wide ones there which I imagine may be a little 'off'.

Dont stop proving some updates.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by RallySnake

Joey,

That looks like the car that Ron Butler used as a display model in his Goleta shop.

The Butler cars are built much stronger than any of the other Cobra's. The primary frame members are 3" by 4" rectangular tubing and they make the car very rigid unlike many replica's or originals. The cockpit is surrounded by steel tubes and the doors have 2" by 4" rectangular tubes running from the hinges to the latches. The fiberglass body's are extra thick and strong, too. If you are ever going to be involved in an accident in a Cobra, the Butler is the best one to be in. The biggest advantage of this extra weight is that it's very low and makes the center of gravity very low. I have had some very hairy experiences in my 29 years of Arntz ownership (the earlier version of the Butler) and it's very difficult to flip the car over.

RS

"much stronger than ANY other Cobras"? I try to avoid superlatives when making comparisons, especially when objective data isn't available to support my assertions.

I haven't been able to find any photos of the Butler frame, but the photo I was able to track down of the Arntz frame (Which Goodyears are these (Arntz from 1980 Hot Rod pics)) showed a ladder design. If the Butler is similar, I'd argue non-ladder, '3 dimensional' frames such as those used by Factory Five (and others) are most likely stronger and lighter. Example: Design - Factory Five Racing

Here's another data point as well - the frame / chassis used in the West Coast Cobras: http://www.cobrakit.com/Chassis/Chassis03-900.jpg - this is similar in concept to the FF, though not as elegant in its design or execution (sledgehammer approach). I have a WC Cobra that was built in 1991 - there are no cracks showing anywhere in the body. I can also put the car on jack stands and I can't detect ANY torsional twist when I put a jack on a corner.

[Cobra13]

What?

[cycleguy55]

Cobra13: Sorry about the hanging "I have one of the" text - I missed that when I originally posted, but I've cleaned it up now.

[750hp]

The Arntz/Butler chassis is a solid piece. A clever design could create something stronger and lighter I'm sure, but these feel like they'll live forever...

Here are a few images I pinched from the Bitten By the Snake video. This is Scott Foxwell from G&S Motorsports after he bought the company from Ron Butler.

EDIT - I've removed the ridiculously oversized photos. To see the cowl hoop, 2x4" side intrusion and other tank-like features, have a look at the YouTube video Bitten By The Snake by Jim Colman.

[joyridin']

What happened to G & S Motorsports? Did they go under?

[750hp]

G&S folded unfortunately. Scott Foxwell is now building some killer engines and cylinder heads under the name Foxwell Motorsports. Really impressive stuff.

About 10 years ago here on ClubCobra, Scott became involved in an occasionally heated discussion about real/claimed power numbers from Keith Craft. As the dust was settling (and for me to give some context to the message) Scott offered an apology but also gave some insight into G&S and its demise. Scott is incredibly passionate about what he believes, from his willingness to challenge what he sees as potentially fudged dyno figures, to his faith, to the right intake volume cylinder head for a street driven 555 cube muscle car. If he disagrees with you, you'll definitely know about it! Always makes for interesting reading...

Originally Posted by steelcomp

It seems apologies are in order. Throughout this thread, I was of the mind and intention to keep things on an objective and impersonal level, and thought I was doing just that. However, after listening to the responses, and before responding to them, I felt as if I should re read what has been posted and responded to, and I have to say that I have not been as objective as I had hoped I could or thought I was being. To those of you which I offended, I apologise. My comments that were made for the purpose of insult and belittlement were inappropriate and uncalled for.

Some of you probably know who I am. If you read back through the threads, I offered that I am the S of G&S, who, with my father, bought Butler Cobras. There's a story there that I will not go in to, but for those of you that assesed that I have "issues", you are correct, and I apologise, again, for not recognising just how much distain I have for this INDUSTRY, not the people in it. I made some sweeping comments out of frustration, which I will address, but the jest of my comments were never at people. Unfortunately it's hard with just the printed word to accurately communicate what tone of voice and facial expressions might otherwise explain. Some of what I said was taken very far out of context. Understandably so. I hit some sensative nerves, obviously. That was probably my intention, and I'll not justify it, but there is an explaination. I took a huge chance, and my father as well, and together we put our hearts and souls, and every pennie we had into the Cobra arena, and were lied to, swindled, and cheated by almost every one who had the ability to. I trusted with all I had, two of the most legendary icons in this replica (and authentic) Cobra world, only to have both of them blatently and without conscience intentionally falsify information, financial figures, and intention. Yes it ended in court, but we had to walk away after being drained of all our funds, having nothing left. Ther was no support from anyone. I have a feeling that the Butler name was doomed from the get go, after hearing of his attitude and opinion of the same industry.
I mentioned two icons. The other was Steve Arntz aka David Norman of whom I will reserve comment except for to say that his day will come. I came away from my experience with him with nothing. He "relieved me" of over 20K worth of tools, inventory, and personal property and files including my Cobra customer base. He was ordered by a judge to return most of the property with a follow up court date, neither of which did he obey, and that was the last I saw of him or my possessions. When I say I left that experience with nothing, I meant it in the literal sense. To this day I do not understand his motivation for doing such a thing. Some of those things can never be replaced.

It's been 5 yrs. since I even spoke about a Cobra. In the begining I tought I would see what was "out there", my curiosity and passion for the damn car getting the better of me. I found this web site, and was reading some posts. I saw "Shelby Aluminum" and it cought my eye. I was lucky enough to have worked with Mike LeFevers at Shelby as one of my customers wanted an all aluminum 427. That was an interesting experience. Some of you may remember the rolling chassis. I took it to Knots Berry Farm and won 1'st pl. Mfgr trophy for that car. First time out. I worked 100 hrs+ a week for a year trying to make a business go that was so mis represented, it was never going to go! But I tried.
I started reading the post about the KC engine, and as I admitted before, I had read past the first thread, and seen in the second and third that the numbers were corrected to 760+ hp.

Here's where I still hold my ground. I questioned those numbers, and, first of all, no one corrected me of the error untill several pages later, but the fact remains, and still to this moment, no one has told me how or why those (corrected) numbers are correct. I kept getting comments from the peanut gallery, and there was all kinds of support for the fact that every one believed they were correct. There was even a dyno sheet, that I immediately found out and pointed out discrepancies about (which still haven't been answered). I really never intended that it was impossible, just that through my experience, that kind of HP requires more compression, cam and carb than how the motor was described. I don't believe much of what I'm told, especially byb a bunch of guys who have a very srong EMOTIONAL investment in this, nor do I look at someone's dyno sheet and accept that as gospel. I was looking for a techiniocal explaination fo how that kind of power was made with those given parameters. I haven't folowed super stock drag racing for years, and frankly never did. The FE was great in it's day, and I can admit, it seems as if it has made a come back, in it's own world. I wasn't looking for an arguement, or a debate, or anything else. Hell, I love to be proven wrong...I can be very opinionated...and love to learn. My experience isn't the point here. My point is that I raised some questions (and recognise that I might have presented them better) that still, no one has answered. I don't care about a 9 sec. Fairlane. That dosen't tell me "how!" Don't tell me I'm wrong and expect me to just say "OK" because you say I am. I'm not claiming something here that I need to defend. I know what I know and don't have to prove anything. I'm the one raising questions and doubts, and no one has given me an answer yet. Not one. A lot of lynch mob mentality rock throwing (which I may have started) but not an answer yet.

I again sincerely apologise for not recognising where my emotions were regarding this whole subject. I am angry. I have a right to be, and I guess I took it upon myself to take it out on all you good people. It was unfair, inappropriate, and childish. Please accept my sincere apology, and offer some understanding in return.

Scott Foxwell

[joyridin']

Thank you for the info! Too bad he could not keep the Arntz/Butler Cobra in production. It sounds like he would have made some pretty unique upgrades.

[stallion112]

The description of the Butler frame and body sound familiar to the Kellison Stallion frame and body. Does anyone know the differences / similarities between the two? The Stallion was produced circa 1978-1981.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by stallion112

The description of the Butler frame and body sound familiar to the Kellison Stallion frame and body. Does anyone know the differences / similarities between the two? The Stallion was produced circa 1978-1981.

The Kellison Stallion became the West Coast Cobra some time in the early '80s. I can find no photos of the Stallion frame but, based upon various descriptions, it would appear the West Coast Cobra frame is a continuation of the one developed by Kellison.

As I posted earlier in this thread, I haven't been able to find any photos of the Butler frame, but the photo I was able to track down of the Arntz frame (Which Goodyears are these (Arntz from 1980 Hot Rod pics)) showed a ladder design. I have no idea whether the Butler is similar to the Arntz - perhaps somebody with some knowledge can help with this.

You can see the frame / chassis used in the West Coast Cobras (and presumably Kellison Stallion) here, and it's much different than the Arntz frame: http://www.cobrakit.com/Chassis/Chassis03-900.jpg

Other:

• Comments about 6,000 lbs. per degree torsional stiffness, impact & rollover protection: kellisonstallion
• Comments about the frame, body alterations, doorbars for protection, sale of the company and West Coast Cobra: Kellison Kit Cars - Kit Car History - Kit Car Magazine

So, we have photos of the Arntz and WCC frames, but not those of Butler or Kellison. IF the Butler was similar to the Arntz and the Kellison similar to the WCC, there are many differences. IF the Butler was significantly different than the Arntz it could be much closer in design, but until someone can produce more information about the Butler frame (including photos), it's still an open question. In order to answer your question accurately we should have more information about the Stallion as well.

[joyridin']

Butler frames and Arntz are identical.