How bad is stale fuel?

[cameron02]

I finally got my car back together and I was about to say that it is completed. Only took me 7 years

But....the bugger wouldnt start. I had my auto electrician come out and I had a loose wire which he fixed up but it still would not start which he said was due to stale fuel. Same fuel in the tank for about 3 years. (he was able to start the car by squirting some carby cleaner through a vacume line).

Anyway, he suggested replacing the fuel and the spark plugs. I have just finished doing this and it still does not start.

My question is, how bad is stale fuel. I pumped the fuel out and then put about 20 litres of fresh fuel in. I then cleared the lines by running the fuel pump and collectind the fuel near the fuel rail. There might have been a litre or 2 of stale fuel still in the tank, would 2 litres of stale fuel mixed with 20 litres of fresh fuel be enough to stop it starting? Do I have to drop the tank

[Gav]

I would not have thought so, the octane rating of fuel drops with age, and 2 in 20 would probably not cause an issue.
It can also go off like jelly if left long enough, which may have blocked your injectors.
Is the battery getting low now? If so perhaps try recharging it and have another go.

[Outwest34au]

I once bought a 44 gallon drum of 'super' (leaded fuel) which had sat for 30 years. Got it for $20 LMAO. I used all but the last few litres of gunk in the bottom of the drum. Mixed 50/50 with some fresh fuel it worked good enough for an everyday driver.
The worst issue with stale fuel is the lighter liquid evaporates over time and leaves a greasy oil like soup which can block jets and accelerator pumps etc. I imagine EFI injectors wouldn't be real happy running in soup and may clog shut even.
If I was in your situation I wouldn't be dropping the tank, I would be looking at cleaning the fuel rail out and maybe get a quick injector test at a workshop.

Naturally the octane rating of the fuel would deplete over time but this would be noticeable when you drove it hard. Since you aint driving start at the rail and injectors.

BTW, when fuel dries in a filter it can sometimes make it impossible for the filter to flow fuel.

Good luck

[Merv and Sharon]

Cameron I suspect that is not stale fuel. Is the fuel flow OK? The pump is working and the lines all clear?

[Excaliber]

"Starter Fluid", a little dab will do ya. Keep spraying it lightly in the intake to keep the motor running or until there is a huge fireball, what ever comes first. Put the fire out, repeat, soon enough the fresh fuel will clear out the lines and the injector. Or burn down the garage, what ever comes first. Put the fire out, repeat...

[cameron02]

Ha, very funny Excaliber. I guess I could try the Starter fluid idea, guess I'd better make sure my life insurance is up to date.

Yes Gav, I forgot to mention that I also got a new battery, so thats not it.

Merv and Outwest, The pump is working fine and the filter is letting fuel through.

I guess it could be the injectors. I reckon I try Excalibers idea because its the easier option. If that doesnt work I guess I need to clean the injectors.

[Excaliber]

The Starter Fluid method does indeed work for many applications. I have personally experienced the "fire ball" side of this method as well. It's wonderful when it works. Horrific when it don't!

Make sure your extinguisher is handy and really works. Mine didn't when I needed it most. One time when I was working on a motorcycle (bad carb it turned out to be). The carb leaked just a little fuel around the intake manifold. When the engine back fired (not quite enough starter fluid, very tricky to get it right) it ignited the little puddle of fuel, not good. Blazing saddles in nothing flat, the dang fire extinguisher DID NOT WORK! Trying to put the fire out I dislodged the fuel line to the carb, only later did I figure out THATS what was feeding the fire that was growing at an alarming rate!

I ran got a sheet off the bed, through it over the bike, got the water hose and kept soaking the sheet so it wouldn't burn. It kept the fire under control long enough for it to eventually snuff itself out. Piece of cake, go for it.... Keep a sheet and a water hose handy, it does a remarkably good job if all else fails.

[Rick Parker]

Water is NOT for use on liquid fuel fire.

[Excaliber]

Is this a thread hi-jack yet?

It works well when you use it on a sheet (perhaps blanket, etc.) covering the fire! It keeps the sheet from catching on fire and provides the necessary cover to keep oxygen from reaching the fire. Use a bit of a fine mist of water, on the sheet, or optionally, wet the sheet/blanket just before you cover the fire. Whatever you do, HURRY!!!

Like the Starter Fluid you gotta have a clue how it all works to your benefit. Get it wrong and well yeah, it's gonna get ugly and you will have "liquid fire" (flaming fuel floating on the water) licking at your feet and spreading like crazy.

Assuming you have no extinguisher, what other options do you have besides walkig away? OH wait, I know this one! I once used a 30 lb can of R-12 refrigerant on a VW bug fire on the side of the highway. Snuffed that fire in nothing flat. Fortunately the deadly phosgene gas cloud created by the reaction of the fire and the refrigerant floated away from our immediate area. So this method is also highly controversial (but it works well if you can pull it off without dying).

[Merv and Sharon]

OK - seems that electrics are alright and you feel that fuel is getting through. Do clean the injectors. It will start if fuel is injected into the manifold, but not run. Are EEC connections all OK? Is the TPS(throttle positioning sensor) working after the long period of activity?

[mic n gill]

here in NZ the fuel is 20 % tolune which evaporates reaaal quickly, I've found the best, 1 one cup of 85 oct, per 20 ltrs fuel pretty sweety,keeps every thing wet, dont dry out as much---mic

[Rob. Smith]

2 litres of crook fuel in 20 litres of new fuel wouldn't affect the starting of the engine. You've flushed the system...It should be OK. Try some "Start ya bastard" in the air cleaner duct.[ its an Ether based product by Nulon ] If it fires then you can look at dirty/ gummy injectors. Put some injector cleaner in the tank and you might be right. I'm no expert but I've seen this happen before.

[cameron02]

Could not get "start ya bastard" but did get a carby throttle body cleaner (also by Nulon). Squirted some through a vacume line and it does start. Started about 10 times, runs for abou 5 seconds then stops.

Now when I try to start it I get the occaisional splutter, which is better than before. So I gues maybe one or two of the injectors are supplying fuel.

So it looks like I will have to remove the injectors and clean them. Any tips on removing and cleaning injectors?

[Aussie Mike]

I've got an ultrasonic cleaner that does a pretty good job on injectors. I had a Jag a few years back that used to regularly get gummed up injectors and it fixed them up a treat. You're welcome to drop your injectors round and use it.

Cheers

[boxhead]

Yep sure sounds like blocked injectors.

[Excaliber]

Starter fluid I tell ya, start spraying (and praying) the instant that bad boy fires up!

"Start ya bastard"? Is that an actual brand name of starting fluid or something? I like it, sounds like good stuff!

Wierd that carb cleaner would help it start, it's generally not combustible. Just what kind of stuff you guys playing with "down under"? Ya'll got some mean chemicals down there.

[WardL]

Back to the fuel ageing question....When stored under the right conditions (dry, dark and air tight can) fuel will last 3 years. Your Toluene boils at 110 C or 230 F, so not much is going to boil off. If it is hot and the light components of the fuel have evaporated, you will lose octane. The light components are about 90 octane. The engine depends on lighter components to vaporize easily and start. It also depends if it was summer gas or winter gas 3 years ago when you filled the tank. If there is ethanol in the fuel, watch out for the water at the bottom of the tank! A small portion of old fuel in the tank should not be an issue.

[cameron02]

Thats really nice of you Mike, I'll see where I'm at once I get them out.

Hi Ward, I dont believe we use different Sumer and Winter fuel in Australia (it doesnt get cold enough). The fuel is 98 octane Unleaded. A mechanic told me that the 98 octane fuel goes off faster than the 91 octane. Only takes 3 months.

So, looks like I need to remove the plemun. How do I actually get the injectors out? Should/must I take the fuel rail out to? (2002 windsor 5ltr)

[cameron02]

OK, I really feel like hitting something.

I removed the plenum. no probs. I went to remove the 4 bolts holding the fuel rail down and they are super tight. Managed to losen the driver side with a ring spanner but have burrd the passenger side bolts.

Not enough room for a grinder. I guess I can drill them out and make a new thread. Any ideas?

[*Cobber*]

Spray with penetrating oil, get a punch and hit the head of the bolt with a few hard sharp hits, leave for 10 minutes (beer time) then repeat process before having a go at removing bolt. If you get through a carton of beer the bolt is too tight but who cares by then anyway.