Modular 5.4 vs Dart block Winsor

[fordracing65]

Modern day electronics, running the mod motors, or any modern motor for that matter, helps drivability also, they don't pay the computer Ford gurus for nothing.

[bobcowan]

Inch for inch, I think the mod motors are pretty darned good. They are an excellent option for people who want a good solid crate engine that starts when you turn the key, will get the groceries on Friday, and streak down the drag strip on Saturday.

If you want big power numbers, it seems that you need forced induction. Blowers seems to be the most popular in the US - probably because of the ease of installation. But there are some turbo kits available.

However, there is one important consideration - heat. I'v raced with a few of supercharged cars - a couple of blown Mustangs, and and a blown Corvette. They are really fast for 2-3 laps, and then they're done. They heat soak and the computer shuts them down. OTOH, my NA stroker is making the same lap times at the end as it is in the beginning. There's a lot to be said for that.

[LJ47]

So with a modern motor and computer you should be able to have the best of both worlds revs and streetabilty.
LJ

[fordracing65]

I would love a supercharged corvette for the street, of topic, but i want one.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

Inch for inch, I think the mod motors are pretty darned good. They are an excellent option for people who want a good solid crate engine that starts when you turn the key, will get the groceries on Friday, and streak down the drag strip on Saturday.

If you want big power numbers, it seems that you need forced induction. Blowers seems to be the most popular in the US - probably because of the ease of installation. But there are some turbo kits available.

I would agree with you in a NY minute Bob. The turbo guys actually make some scary big HP numbers but in terms of a high torque value at the crack of the throttle and the attendant precision feel it returns to the cockpit and driver the positive displacement blowers are pretty darn impressive.

Originally Posted by bobcowan

However, there is one important consideration - heat. I'v raced with a few of supercharged cars - a couple of blown Mustangs, and and a blown Corvette. They are really fast for 2-3 laps, and then they're done. They heat soak and the computer shuts them down. OTOH, my NA stroker is making the same lap times at the end as it is in the beginning. There's a lot to be said for that.

Heat soak on any of the blown engines is a big issue. Increasingly there have been incremental improvements in handling the problem. One of the most creative and certainly continuous because of the process energy source has to be these guys, click here => Killer Chiller

Their chilling system employs a very creative approach using an AC pump and a dedicated chiller to ice down a one or two gallon reservoir of coolant for the air to water intercooler. The chiller can take two gallons to freezing (you need to run some anti-freeze) in about two minutes if you run a two pump system. One pump recirculates coolant between the chiler and the reservoir and the other between the reservoir and the intercooler.

The after blower air temps can get down to ambient or less pretty easily. The system is quite impressive.

Ed

[tirod]

Here's the view of an older hot rodder - from the street level.

The point of the discussion is really which motor can the average guy build to get horsepower. Mod motors are factory motors, and it's the only choice the factory has to race with or make cars. That's based on 1) cost 2) emissions. It's what Ford decided it needed to work with going forward. These cam motors do well in factory hands, and yes, make a lot of horsepower - with a highly trained and degreed engineering staff behind it.

For the guy on the street - it's much different. He hears about his neighbor's truck spitting plugs out the block, the intake leaking antifreeze, the plastic manifold, and lord help the guy who flips off the cam chains - there's no index marks to time it back again, it's a $350 min machine shop charge locally. Those in the know still have to buy the $150 kit to clamp the cams down.

It Is Not User Friendly.

Look at the other side of the VS - a Dart block? We're talking aftermarket support so deep you can pick and choose non Ford blocks to whatever level of horsepower you need. All it takes is money, whether in cubic yards or a credit limit. What you can get is a 427 - from a 351W. It can be a crate block built for racing, with seriously cast and hand ported heads, plus all the allied parts specifically developed, and most of them waiting on the shelf.

Mod motors don't have that depth of parts or support on the market. In a large degree, it doesn't exist because the cars that debuted with them came at a time when severely restrictive emissions laws were in place, and very few could do much with them. But - the Windsor motors go back to the '60s, and so do the cars that had them. All those owners aren't moving up to mod motors. There's no reason to, unlike the pre 63 owners who largely dumped the Y block back then, and even lately, the FE's.

Mod motors are what you are forced to buy in a car to meet draconian emissions standards, Windsors are what somebody builds to have fun at the track, strip, cruising, at shows, etc. because HE can screw it together and not pay a mechanic or buy expensive tools.

I'm glad I'm not stuck with a mod motor or a car that's required to use it.

[Rog246]

Originally Posted by tirod

Here's the view of an older hot rodder - from the street level.

The point of the discussion is really which motor can the average guy build to get horsepower. Mod motors are factory motors, and it's the only choice the factory has to race with or make cars. That's based on 1) cost 2) emissions. It's what Ford decided it needed to work with going forward. These cam motors do well in factory hands, and yes, make a lot of horsepower - with a highly trained and degreed engineering staff behind it.

For the guy on the street - it's much different. He hears about his neighbor's truck spitting plugs out the block, the intake leaking antifreeze, the plastic manifold, and lord help the guy who flips off the cam chains - there's no index marks to time it back again, it's a $350 min machine shop charge locally. Those in the know still have to buy the $150 kit to clamp the cams down.

It Is Not User Friendly.

Look at the other side of the VS - a Dart block? We're talking aftermarket support so deep you can pick and choose non Ford blocks to whatever level of horsepower you need. All it takes is money, whether in cubic yards or a credit limit. What you can get is a 427 - from a 351W. It can be a crate block built for racing, with seriously cast and hand ported heads, plus all the allied parts specifically developed, and most of them waiting on the shelf.

Mod motors don't have that depth of parts or support on the market. In a large degree, it doesn't exist because the cars that debuted with them came at a time when severely restrictive emissions laws were in place, and very few could do much with them. But - the Windsor motors go back to the '60s, and so do the cars that had them. All those owners aren't moving up to mod motors. There's no reason to, unlike the pre 63 owners who largely dumped the Y block back then, and even lately, the FE's.

Mod motors are what you are forced to buy in a car to meet draconian emissions standards, Windsors are what somebody builds to have fun at the track, strip, cruising, at shows, etc. because HE can screw it together and not pay a mechanic or buy expensive tools.

I'm glad I'm not stuck with a mod motor or a car that's required to use it.

The problem we have in Oz is that we can't register a Cobra replica as a 64-67 model car-the rego authorities here just won't allow it. That being said the engines we use MUST pass specific emission rules, which vary from state to state-hence people looking at alternative power sources-including those supplied by Govt. Motors !!-Bleah !
It now comes down to being expedient to get the mongrel registered. But as I previously said I'm more than happy to use a Mod motor, and 6 speed g'box and rear gears anything from low 3's to 4.6:1 to match what I'm doing at the time-and not run outta rev's
Rog

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by tirod

Here's the view of an older hot rodder - from the street level.

The point of the discussion is really which motor can the average guy build to get horsepower. Mod motors are factory motors, and it's the only choice the factory has to race with or make cars. That's based on 1) cost 2) emissions. It's what Ford decided it needed to work with going forward. These cam motors do well in factory hands, and yes, make a lot of horsepower - with a highly trained and degreed engineering staff behind it.

For the guy on the street - it's much different. He hears about his neighbor's truck spitting plugs out the block, the intake leaking antifreeze, the plastic manifold, and lord help the guy who flips off the cam chains - there's no index marks to time it back again, it's a $350 min machine shop charge locally. Those in the know still have to buy the $150 kit to clamp the cams down.

It Is Not User Friendly.

Look at the other side of the VS - a Dart block? We're talking aftermarket support so deep you can pick and choose non Ford blocks to whatever level of horsepower you need. All it takes is money, whether in cubic yards or a credit limit. What you can get is a 427 - from a 351W. It can be a crate block built for racing, with seriously cast and hand ported heads, plus all the allied parts specifically developed, and most of them waiting on the shelf.

Mod motors don't have that depth of parts or support on the market. In a large degree, it doesn't exist because the cars that debuted with them came at a time when severely restrictive emissions laws were in place, and very few could do much with them. But - the Windsor motors go back to the '60s, and so do the cars that had them. All those owners aren't moving up to mod motors. There's no reason to, unlike the pre 63 owners who largely dumped the Y block back then, and even lately, the FE's.

Mod motors are what you are forced to buy in a car to meet draconian emissions standards, Windsors are what somebody builds to have fun at the track, strip, cruising, at shows, etc. because HE can screw it together and not pay a mechanic or buy expensive tools.

I'm glad I'm not stuck with a mod motor or a car that's required to use it.

Tirod makes some good points here. the engine has had more than it's share of whoopses along the development path - that's for sure and the bad news. The good news is all the guys who have gone before you have already noodled out the fixes for these problems including Ford. The engine as it stands today in factory supercharged trim is exceptional both in terms of components and in durability.

From an aftermarket block standpoint there are alternatives to the Ford offering - although the FGT versions are stunningly good blocks. World Products has made blocks for Sean Hyland who currently is the source for the block. They are reportedly good for 2000+ HP. They look like miniature Keith Black blocks but for Mod Motors. Ford does not ignore the engine either. They actually offer several performance versions available in both aluminum and a special high strength cast iron.

In the end however it is not a matter of what the guys before you did or even the factory, it all comes down to what you want for your personal engine in your car - and no one is better qualified to make that determination than you. That means that what ever you choose to do is automatically right.

Originally Posted by Rog246

The problem we have in Oz is that we can't register a Cobra replica as a 64-67 model car-the rego authorities here just won't allow it. That being said the engines we use MUST pass specific emission rules, which vary from state to state-hence people looking at alternative power sources-including those supplied by Govt. Motors !!-Bleah !
It now comes down to being expedient to get the mongrel registered. But as I previously said I'm more than happy to use a Mod motor, and 6 speed g'box and rear gears anything from low 3's to 4.6:1 to match what I'm doing at the time-and not run outta rev's
Rog

Rog, is suffering under the heavy hand of a Dept of Motor Vehicles misplaced nanny-state initiative that trys to protect us from things that can't hurt us. The amount of emissions that the Cobra replicas contribute to the air quality in Australia is a distinction without a difference. That said they are still the ones that make the rules so he is stuck in the uncomfortable position of having to comply with them.

Those nanny-state rules are the primary reason so many Chevrolet powered Cobras exist is OZ. Ford was slow on the draw with their "green" crate engines and the builders filled the vacuum with the only alternatives available to them - can't really blame them for that.

Today it is a different story because Ford finally caught on and got their keyster in gear. The current blown versions of the Mod Motor still need some after market loving but precious little. The complexity of working with the electronics has been substantially mitigated by aftermarket software that can manipulate the tuning variables to your heart's content and Ford even sells complete versions of the electronics stripped down to meet the demands of kit car builders. It is a different world than it once was.

In the final analysis though, the correct engine is whatever the builder wants for his personal ride. Always has been and hopefully always will be.

Ed

[Gav]

Ed,
Most of us over here with LS powered Cobras either don't like Fords or wanted a light powerful engine that had a huge aftermarket with go fast bits available.
Plain and simple.

Ford are getting their act together now with the Coyote, but they are about 15 years behind the ball.

[RACER X #99]

Originally Posted by Gav

Ed,
Most of us over here with LS powered Cobras either don't like Fords or wanted a light powerful engine that had a huge aftermarket with go fast bits available.
Plain and simple.

Ford are getting their act together now with the Coyote, but they are about 15 years behind the ball.

I would say that Ford is actually ahead of GM in the engine dept. Does GM have a 302 CI NA engine making 444 HP?

GM dropped the ball when they discontinued the OHC Vette engine a few years back.

I know the LS is probably the best push rod engine made but please it's time to put the SB Chevy to bed.
Just like the OHV engine made the flathead obsolete so has the OHC engine made the push rod engine obsolete.

[Merv and Sharon]

You build what you want, within the rules you have. I have aways loved the authenticity of the Ford-Cobra connection and wanted that, and was lucky enough too be allowed to do just that at the time. If I was building now, it would be Ford Coyote, but I suspect that I would have needed much more assistance than I did with the Ford small block installation.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

I would say that Ford is actually ahead of GM in the engine dept. Does GM have a 302 CI NA engine making 444 HP?

GM dropped the ball when they discontinued the OHC Vette engine a few years back.

I know the LS is probably the best push rod engine made but please it's time to put the SB Chevy to bed.
Just like the OHV engine made the flathead obsolete so has the OHC engine made the push rod engine obsolete.

Racer,

I agree that GM has constantly regretted that they gave up on an over sized and overly complicated engine in the Corvette and replaced it with what could be considered one of their most versitile and definitly their most powerful engine platform.

[mpanten]

I have had both motors and both are good. You need a blower to make good power but there is plenty of aftermarket support for mod motors, especially the 4.6. You can run up to 9psi on pump gas with the standard 2valve 4.6 and not need to upgrade. If you go higher you will need forged internals.

The 4.6 4 valve is already forged and will naturally put out a lot more power. Not sure about the internals of the 5.0 and 5.4
Anything over 6psi you will need the intercooler. If I had to worry about emmissions I would be looking at the mod motor kenne bell supercharger system for sure. I worked great in my mustang.

[eschaider]

I think we have managed to restart a variation of the small block / big block controversy here.

Although there are those who feel they must establish the superiority of their engine choice over all other alternatives, I think the real world is, as several have already said, these engines are all good. Even more importantly, the primary consideration in the selection process is the needs/wants of the individual car builder.

If you are willing to accept that sort of value system then whatever the builder selects by definition is the best for him. The rest of the my dog is bigger than your dog stuff is irreconcilable and doesn't contribute anything to anyone who is still in the engine selection phase trying to pick his power plant - which presumably is one of the things we try to help with here?

Ed

[Rog246]

Well said and of course............said well !! LOL

Its pretty funny that we refer to some things as Dogs...........but when we work on them they are *itches of things

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by eschaider

I think we have managed to restart a variation of the small block / big block controversy here.

Although there are those who feel they must establish the superiority of their engine choice over all other alternatives, I think the real world is, as several have already said, these engines are all good. Even more importantly, the primary consideration in the selection process is the needs/wants of the individual car builder.

If you are willing to accept that sort of value system then whatever the builder selects by definition is the best for him. The rest of the my dog is bigger than your dog stuff is irreconcilable and doesn't contribute anything to anyone who is still in the engine selection phase trying to pick his power plant - which presumably is one of the things we try to help with here?

Ed

I think you mean owner/driver vs builder - very few members on this thread actually built their cars, bought 'em used or leftover turnkey in default, you can tell by the advice they are giving

[Merv and Sharon]

Not in Australia. Majority are owner built but this is changing perhaps.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

I think you mean owner/driver vs builder - very few members on this thread actually built their cars, bought 'em used or leftover turnkey in default, you can tell by the advice they are giving

I used the phraseology loosely, but your point is well taken. Although the ultimate builder is the scratch builder, the guy who buys a kit or even a roller and actually does the homework to select and fit his power train to the chassis is still a "builder". Each of us is gifted with different skills. When I paint it looks like a wino did it with a brick! When I do engines it looks better.

Originally Posted by Merv and Sharon

Not in Australia. Majority are owner built but this is changing perhaps.

God bless you guys down there Merv! You have been and continue to be inspirational to us back here - especially us guys trapped in Kalifornia.

We are rapidly heading down a nanny state emissions regulation road similar to the one you guys struggle so against. Hope we can throw a switch somewhere before the end of the line and get our train on a different track.