LS2 or LS3?

[Ryder]

Just after some personal opinions.

I'm getting an engine and box secondhand for my car next week. Went to visit a really good wrecker who is local to me, and he's taken a liking to the cobra and is looking after me.

So basicly I have 3 options. All of the options are for an engine, manual gearbox, wiring loom, computer, exhaust system and air cleaner setup too, plus he says it includes any of the other little things I'll need that I've overlooked.

1. An L98, has about 35,000km on it
2. An LS2, has about the same but came from a stolen car that was recovered at a chop shop. It has some surface weathering, but the thieves went to the trouble of taping up the connectors and hoses and made a neat little engine stand for it
3. An LS3, still complete out of a HSV ute, 30,000km ish

Options 1 and 2 would be made up out of several cars, just finding good parts and using them. The cost for either is $6000

Option 3 is all out of one car, no mix and match, however it would cost $9000. And the car took a pretty big front end hit - he says he will test it and give it a warranty though.

I'm leaning towards the LS2, because it seems you dont get too much of a out of the box power difference between that and the LS3, and I'm wondering if it's worth the price difference... Maybe that extra 3k could go towards a supercharger in a few years time, if it needs it

Just wondering what you would do if you were in my shoes, and your reasons? And please don't say 'I'd use them all as boat anchors and put a ford engine in it'

[sambo]

Ryder,

Ever heard the expression "drive it like you stole it". That rules out the LS2 for me.

The L98 has better flowing heads than the LS2 and will respond well to a cam.

For 9k I'd be looking at a new LS3 from Holmart, below. Put the $1100 change towards ECU, gearbox etc from your wrecker.

VE 6.2 LT LS3 CRATE MOTOR BRAND NEW (VE)

Or the 6.0L from the VE for $6400.

http://www.holmart.com.au/online/prod336.htm

Or slightly cheaper here:

http://www.capa.com.au/hot_engine_packages.htm

[PeterAllen]

I bought a compete statutory write-off. At the time, Jan '08, wreckers wanted $7500 for an engine and gearbox. I purchased a 2005 VZ SS LS1 Ute wreck from an auction for $5200 and with a little persuasion from my wife I had it stripped in 3 weeks and the shell taken away free. I sold off on eBay the undamaged bits I didn't want (not too many - it had rolled) for $2500 and hung on to some stuff for possible inclusion, radio, etc. Someone paid >$200 for the towbar!

A big part of my thinking was that I didn't want to be running back to the wrecker for little but costly, auxilary items. For example, I used the fuel tank fittings and pump, the diff, horn and other stuff some of which talked to the ECU, e.g. cruise control.

[Three Peaks]

The LS3 has great heads (same as LS7) and is just a GM OEM cam away from 480 hp and still has great street manners. Aluminum block, great heads, tons of aftermarket, what's not to like?

[Towmaster]

Get a post October 2009 VE SS manual from your local damaged vehicle auction. You will pay less then $6000 and be able to sell off unwanted parts. Plus the post 09 will have the upgraded 6 speed manual the TR 6060 which is a whole lot stronger than the T56 in earlier models plus has better ratios. Plus the L98 has the good heads, with a small cam & valve springs will make 400hp at the tyres!
I did the same thing for the Rodeo. Wrecked VE SS ute cost me $6097.00 & I have sold off excess parts for $2100.00 so far with about another $400 to go with brake booster, steering wheel & radio etc still to sell. Plus buying a wreck you get all brackets, etc to have the car running. A/C is on its own belt so just take it off & eBay it.

[sideshow]

Just remember anything later than a vz has ecu behind the front drivers headlight
So I guess in a cobra will be just infront of the brake master or strut tower area
So if u buy everything separately and want ecu under dash don't buy a ve loom
The Holden dealers and holmart normally sell the loom to match engine and sometimes its not the best way

[sideshow]

Hey ash we still need to sort out your cruise control on the rodeo

[Ryder]

Thanks for the replies. Looks like I'll be seriously looking at aftermarket parts for all the options, seeing what gives the best bang for buck! I thought the LS2 might be a better engine due to it producing slightly more power stock, and might be more desirable down the track due to it being associated with HSV's. But it seems like it may not be the best option.

I heard the late model VE L98's have some kind of cylinder shutdown mode to save fuel? Sounds like it might be a pain, probably not a big problem, but I'm a fan of the KISS way of doing things at times.

I did look very seriously at buying a whole wrecked car, here are the pros and cons as I see it:

Pros - Might save a grand or two, would be able to use bits and peices and adapt stuff from the wreck that i'd otherwise have to buy. And I'd be able to use it as a referance for how all the wiring looms run standard.

Cons - Manual VE V8's don't come up that often in driving range. In the last 2 months I've seen 2 suitable ones, one was a few hundred km away, which makes it hard to inspect before auction. Online auctions are a possibility, but one car came up on wednesday - they wanted me to pay a $500 membership fee before I could bid online! Then, assuming I got one, I'd need to store it while I strip it. I'm in a rental house arranged by the company I work for (one of the perks of the job and having to move a lot), and the rental agreement specificaly says that car wrecks on the front lawn are a no-no. I could probably get away with it, but then storage space for all the bits would be an issue - there's barely enough room in my garage for the cobra, my 2 sportsbikes, my tools and workbench, welder, engine crane ect ect.
Assuming all that worked out, I'd then have to sell the leftover parts on ebay. lets face it - once the motor, box, loom, computer is gone then whats left? Interior? Hard to imagine new cars need a replacement one of them yet. Wheels? It's likely there wont be a full undamaged set. Diff, radiator, doors, other panels? Maybe, assuming no damage to them and assuming someone wants them.
Finally theres the problem that I don't have a lot of free time (2 kids under 5, a wife and a full time job that involves going away a lot). Stripping, selling and storing parts might be time better spent just getting the parts from the wrecker and working with them straight away.

So to summarise - a wrecker could give me exactly what I need and take the hassle out of it, but I'll pay a grand or two more.

Though this is the cheapest wrecker I've found for this stuff by FAR, several others want 6K+ just for the engine loom and computer

[Zedn]

I bought a crate ls3 brand new $7950 (that was dear cause not much around at the time), a second hand late model VE gearbox with 20,000ks $1850 eBay ecu with security removed ($200 eBay) conversion wiring loom new from us $500. I got a full HSV exhaust with headers and cats for a case of beer.

I thought about getting a wreck but didnt have the room and wanted a brand new motor.

I recommend ls3 because the price is not much extra and you get a better motor with extra capacity.

[Modena]

Ryder, given your situation as you describe, you are probably right not to go the route of buying an entire wreck (space, time, effort etc).

As to whether you buy a new crate motor or from a wrecker, if you're happy with a second hand motor then you will save money, there's not much else in the equation. Just remember that the warranty is likely to be a maximum of 12 months, and you are not likely to have the car driveable in 12 months so the warranty may be useless.

I'm going for a new crate motor because it's what I want in the car - to my mind this is basically a new car, and I'm using a lot of new parts (box, diff, clutch etc). If this isn't important to you then you may as well go second hand and save some coin.

To the original question, L98 and LS3 both have the better head casting. I say casting because they do not have the same gear on the heads. The LS3 gets sodium-filled exhaust valves, bigger valves, etc.

The heads on an LS3 will flow 600hp without port modification.

LS2 vs L98? Same capacity 6.0L, L98 has better flow, but the LS2 seems to be more bulletproof. L98 however is very common here in AU, years from now that may be a bonus. The LS2 was the last of the LS engines with the cathedral port heads, and was rated at 400hp. The factory power ratings are fairly meaningless however, as with exhast and proper edit they will all make over 440hp.

LS3 is effectively an updated LS2, the LS2 was only in production for about 3-4 years I think.

If you ask around the new Holden circles you will hear a lot of people have had their LS3 HSV in for replacement lifters under warranty, in some cases less than 10,000kms. This doesn't phase me as I plan on upgrading cam and lifters anyway in the first year of driving.

I have heard that new LS3 crate motors may now be coming with DoD hardware (what Holden call AFM), even though it wont get used in the current VE HSV. You don't want DoD in your Cobra if you can avoid it, its a bunch of hardware that you wont use and just adds complication for something that you will never activate.

The LS3 is the engine to choose just in comparing technical details. Is it worth 3K more, I would say no, that is to expensive. Brand new in a crate an LS3 goes for about $1,500 more than an L77 (updated L98). Given the specific engines you describe, I wouldn't be paying $9K for an LS3-combo which has been front smashed. The box is probably worth 1500-2000, so that means they want 7000-7500 for the motor and ancillaries. What are ancillaries worth? computer, loom, PS pump, alternator. 9K seems like a lot to me.

[Modena]

Forgot to mention, The VF is going to start getting the LS3 rather than the 6.0L engines, something else to consider as it means the LS3 will become a lot more common in the near future, until the Gen V's start coming out in the next couple of years.

[T.L.]

I purchased a LS3 from one of the cars that HSV put the LS7's in. paid around $6500 for it in 09. Then paid about the usual for the rest of the bits and pieces.

Put a supercharger on the top of it without undoing a bolt to the insides and have 550HP at the wheels.

I'm really pleased I purchased the engine, as the LS3 block is the same as the LS9, the LS9 gets LS7 heads apparently as well, the LS9 gets some better rods but I'll wait and see, so far it going great.

[Ryder]

Thanks guys for the comments

Having had a good look around at aftermarket parts, and a closer look at the motors, I've decided on getting the LS2. Almost went for the LS3, so close to saying yes to that one, but I just couldn't justify the extra $3000 - that money would go a long way in aftermarket mods!
The LS2 will be compression tested and if thats all good then it will be going in my car. Being as it was recovered from a chop shop not a crashed joy ride, I know it hasn't been sujected to stresses from a crash, and because they obviously planned to onsell it I'm hoping it hasn't been thrashed too much. But any wrecked car is a gamble, who knows what kind of person had it first, and how they drove it?

The L98 that I mentioned before turned out to have a broken accessory mount on the block, I believe it was a power steering mount. So that motor was pretty much junk.

[Krait]

My LS2 Harrison goes hard enough in a hurry. Horsepower always isn't always the answer to going quick

Cheers

[Rebel1]

Don't overlook the L76.
It's 6 ltr, has the better 5364 heads but does have DOD.

You're almost certainly going to put an aftermarket cam into whatever you choose so that cost will be common.

Just change out the DOD followers with the cam change and replace the valley cover with a LS2 version.

A small benefit of the DOD engines is the extra volume oil pump.

You should be able to find a L76 cheaper than some of the others

[Paintwerks]

FWIW, I decided to go for a new motor and transmission (LS3-525hp and TKO600) in my forthcoming Cobra.

I wanted all new parts and didn't want to have to worry about potential issues with used parts. When buying used, you have no idea how it was driven and maintained. As you have identified, perhaps the original owner bagged the crap out of the motor every morning from cold, perhaps he took it to 'Dodgy Joes Mechanics' to get it serviced, maybe he delayed, or missed a service or two? Did he use the car for towing a big boat? Maybe he treated it like gold? You may be lucky.

But these are questions that you just don't have answers to when buying used parts out of a car you know very little, if any about. And that's too much of a gamble for me. $3K (extra) over a $55-80K build would be inconsequential as far as I'm concerned: I wouldn't care about spending the money on performance parts instead.... Let's face it, even a 350hp motor will make a 980-1100kg Cobra go like stink.

I'm more interested in not having to rip the failed motor and transmission out again, the associated down time and trying to make a warranty claim if there ever was a problem. That's far less likely to happen with new parts. Plus they're all nice and clean. The other bonus is that with a new motor and transmission, the '000000' on the odometer would be genuine, too.

Just my $0.03 (inflation adjusted!).