Retro Windsor? Ford Fans don't dispair!

[NASSTY]

Hi Les,

I agree with you.

Fords biggest selling vehicle is a F150 truck. Not surprising then that the triton V8 is biased towards this car. IE It has a very long stroke for torque and a truck is big that who cares how big it is. It's also a modular design, sharing components with 3.5ltr V6's, 4.6 & 5.4 V8s and 6.8ltr V10's so the truck bias flows through all of them.

Not so good for cars though.

My daily driver is a BF with the SOHC 5.4 (230kw and 500nm) and ZF 6 speed auto and its an awesome combo IMO. The big difference is the bottom end of these motors compaired to the quad cammers; there's lots of it. The motor has variable cam timing and it's very smooth. It's basically a truck engine as was the windsor V8. Pulls like a train all the way to the limiter which is unfortunately set at 5500rpm.


But, I think and (agree with you Les) that I think Ford has misread the market and been a bit too smart with the Triton as it deviates away from the KISS principal that works so well with OHV designs.

It's also annoying that GM has found it quite easy to keep improving their small block while Ford threw away theirs.

Ford has also misread the market in that people who buy V8's aren't as concerned about fuel prices as those who don't. Performance matters more. GM understand this better which is reflected in their marketing and their priorities in their engineering. HP matters.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Rebel1

Nope Al, actually I have been disappointed with ford for a long time. Keep in mind that every car I have owned has been a ford with the exception of the last being the magna.

I believe the difficulties ford currently face with falling sales has more to do with the decisions made by ford to walk away from their older small block engines. Holden are enjoying increased sales of their commodore. The GM organization decided wisely that their small block engines were well liked, indeed loved by many, and decided to develop a whole family of updated engines around that basic design.

Ford elected to develop a whole new ( read more expensive to manufacture) engine which had no lineage at all. Huge great big hulking things that were expensive to modify and much more difficult to fit into tight platforms. If you want to put a cam in one you had to buy at least two cams, in many cases four .

We are also in a time when being green and alternate fuels are an area of concern to consumers. Ford has done little by comparison to other manufacturers in this area. Other manufacturers (ok, read chev in this instance, but also others) not being faced with the expense of a whole new engine design, could concentrate outgoings on these "other" areas of concern to address consumer concerns.

Engine manufacturing plants, in these days, need a much larger market than their home market. They need an international market which demand a smaller more efficient engine which can run on a variety of fuels, and fit smaller, less flexible platforms.

Sadly ford misread market forces some years ago.

Sheezzz.....that'll teach ya to get me going on a friday.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by NASSTY

Ford has also misread the market in that people who buy V8's aren't as concerned about fuel prices as those who don't. Performance matters more. GM understand this better which is reflected in their marketing and their priorities in their engineering. HP matters.

Cheers

Excellent point Al.
Australia ( and I think America) is a land of boat and caravan towing, horse float pulling consumers who demand that low down torque.

The SUV market is healthy for this very reason.

We want our primary car to do many things and in todays world we demand a car which can double as a business limo and pull whatever toy we have.

Mum can drive some buzzbox for the more mundane chores but the main vehicle better be able to cut it at work, and on the weekend.

[Blair]

I may be an idiot but this is how I see it:

There is no replacement for displacement.

Therefore:

VE SS = 270kw / 6.0l = 45kw to the litre
HSV GTS = 307 / 6.0 = 51
LS7 = 373 / 7.0 = 53
GT DOHC = 290 / 5.4 = 53
XR8 = 260 / 5.4 = 48
4.6DOHC = 240 / 4.6 = 52

You are always going to get more power for less money the bigger the displacement.

Last time I looked brand new DOHC eninges were the same price as a LS1/2.

The moral of the story is simple; if you want more power and bigger cubes go the Chev. If you are die hard Ford fan or like the DOHC setup (like me) adn want to mess with people who have bigger cubes just add boost. Supercharger kits are only 4 grand now!

[Aussie Mike]

VW Jetta 2.0 Diesel = 103KW / 2.0L = 51.5KW to the Litre.

A quick reflash of the ECU and it's 139KW / 2.0L = 69.5KW to the Litre.

Landrover Discovery 2.5L Diesel (Chipped) = 140KW / 2.5L = 56KW to the Litre

Never mind these Ford and Chev V8s, Put a Diesel in there.

KW per Litre is a pointless measurement used by ricers to make people think their small knobs are bigger than they really are.

What I reckon is really important is how happy your engine choice makes you.

Whether it's the manufacturer or how much power it makes or how drivable it is or how much fuel it uses or how heavy it is or how easy it is to hot up or how much of a bargain it was when you bought it. Every one has to make their own choice based on what's important to them. I'm happy for anyone to use whatever engine does it for them.

It certaily makes it far more interesting to see the variety of engine choices when you wallk among the cars at an event like the nationals. How boring would it be if they were all the same.

I hope Ford do produce a more compact OHV V8 as it will certainly improve the options for Cobra builders.

Cheers

[Blair]

Originally Posted by Aussie Mike

KW per Litre is a pointless measurement used by ricers to make people think their small knobs are bigger than they really are.

I'll take that as an insult. No rice here.

Go and put a 2.0 VW diesel in your Cobra

[PCC]

There will come a time that you decide to sell your Cobra.

Now, which would you go for as a new buyer.............

A 3L turbo engine;

a V6; or

a Ford V8 or a Chevy V8.......

Its always the buyers choice, but when I bought I thought Cobra - Ford, not Cobra - Rover or other brand. That swung me.

Maybe I'm miss guided - Definitely each to their own

[400TT]

Yeah, with the last Cobra I built with my brother we certainly thought that little Japanese Sewing machine engine(Lexus) + Hair Dryer combo would hurt it's resale value...but at the time it was the sensible choice for so many other reasons and certainly no regrets.

I'm a little partial to Ford engines myself. I've had 2 Cobras with Ford engines & 1 x GT40. Only 1 x Cobra with non-Ford engine.

Problem with Chev engines is the argument is getting stronger and stronger for them. Bang for buck I think the L76 + cam combo looks to be the winner at the moment.

And emissions means that both Ford 302w & Ford 4.6lt modular are dead to us QLDers after this year.

[Rebel1]

Blair, I really don't think Mike was referring to you in his comments.

Actually, this discussion was not which engine is best for cobras, but rather a philosophical discussion about how and why Ford are not enjoying a sales level comparable to their competitors.

Maybe Al's original post had to do with the release of a retro ford engine that may be of a physical size more suitable for a cobra. My post insinuated ford may not be around in 2010 owing to the closure of their engine plate and falling sales.

I'll throw it back out there......why are fords not selling well against let's say Holden their main rival. Is it engines?, is it price?, the car's appearance is top shelf so why aren't they selling more?.

I lost my virginity in a ford so have a fond spot in my heart.

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Rebel1

Maybe Al's original post had to do with the release of a retro ford engine that may be of a physical size more suitable for a cobra.

Yeah, that's what this thread was originally about. Ford V8's and cobras.

The triton family of OHC V8s is not best suited for our cobras because of their size and weight. But in my BF it works a treat.

If Ford do release a OHV V8 then that would be a great alternative engine from which to choose.

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by Blair

I'll take that as an insult. No rice here.

Go and put a 2.0 VW diesel in your Cobra

Sorry Michael, There was no insult intended. Your car is a masterpiece without a hint of rice (not that there is anything wrong with Japanese cars). I'll delete the comment if you find it offensive.

What I was trying to say was there is more than one way to achieve the same ends and engine capacity isn't the only factor.

I've been playing with modified cars for over 20 years now and had a wide spectrum of machines. Some good and some real bombs (the bombs were still fun). At get togethers you would usually get the odd guy that would look at your car and point out it's percieved faults.

Conversations would usually get to:
"Your old 6 cylinder is old tech and slow, it's not even overhead cam. My motor makes 100HP per litre"

"OK but your motor is only 1.6 litres so what's that, 160HP?. This old 3.3 litre 6 makes about 160HP..."

etc

Both parties are right and both engines get much the same job done. That being said I'm almost certainly guilty of similar crimes when justifying my own choices but I'm trying to keep a open mind these days.

Cheers

[Aussie Mike]

I think some of Fords down turn may be due them not offering a yellow Taxi pack Falcon any more. Many owners replacing their cabs are turning away from the Falcon as other manufacturers have come up with atractive packages.

V8 versions will still be selling because they apeal to a whole different performance oriented market sector. Regular family sedans is probably where they are hurting most. The soaring fuel prices are probably doing the most damage as families turn away from the bigger cars and choose more fuel efficient alternatives.

I reckon Holden must be feeling the pinch too just we haven't seen it's effects yet.

The Falcon has been winning in the looks department for the last 3 or 4 years in my opinion but I wonder if the release of the all new Commodore has switched some to the dark side?

I reckon they could revive some of their flagging sales by offering the XRs and FPV cars in the US. I've seen plenty of enthusiasm for our utes from US visitors.

Holden have been attacking that market with the Monaro (GTO) and next year they are introducing the Pontiac G8 sedan which is basically the new SS Commodore.
Cheers