SHELBYFEST to class or not to class

[REPTYL]

I’m going through the supp-regs for the Saturday at Winton Raceway.
We always like to think outside the box for Shelby, and we continue to massage the format just a little each year.

I touched on following subject last year on the forum and had some great feed back.

Each year it gets harder and harder to classify Cobras for competition.
From Small block old style normally aspirated unmodified engines with Stock brakes and tyres through to Stroked or forced power plants with race tyres and a lot of steps in between.

With the onset of the modern quad cam and Chevy engines putting out nice ponies straight out of the box, it just makes it a whole lot harder.

If the nationals continue with the Classes format, I believe they will soon need to develop a points system for grading the cars. Different points awarded to cars with big brakes or different grades of tyres and engine specs.

I don't think we are quite brave enough just yet to start down this track. But…..

What do people think of this idea?

Shelby Fest with no classifications.

We don’t all have quick cars, many aren’t set up for the race track and most drivers are out there to have fun, not break the lap record.

Instead of awarding the quickest of each class.

Let's run 3 separate competitions run together in the one event.

First event - out right speed. Reward the top five drivers with the quickest lap times for the day. Regardless of the car type or specs. Race tyres, Car comms, lap timers can all be used.

Second event. DYO. Dial your own time. At the start of the day you set the time you want to do. At the end of the day the 5 cars that get the closest to their time without going over are the winners. No Comms or lap timers to be used with cars in this comp.

Third event- Regularity trial. All the laps for the day are averaged and subtracted from your fastest lap time to give a Reg factor. Lowest Reg factor wins. Again, no timers or comms.

Would appreciate feedback. Especially from the guys that have been to past Shelby Fests.

Do we run multiply classes or multiply competitions? (I'm for the latter)

[LoBelly]

My view is that it can be both.

I do not think that there has to be a class for every variation of cobra or to take into account all of the variables that may (broadly speaking) influence lap times.

I am, as I have said before, in favour of broad classes for the ShelbyFest.

eg.
5.0L (stockers - say factory (or not very big) cams + road tyres)
There are heaps of guys with a nice car that gets a once or twice yearly track day and ought to be able to give it a go with some prospect of placing well.
6.0L (anything you like except slicks)
Starting to get serious and has the potential to produce the quickest lap of the day
6.0+ (racers - includes turbo/supercharged motors - anything goes)
The loonies who are too far gone and should be segregated for the general health of society.

On the basis that if people spend the $ they get the benefit and the variations make classes somewhat arbitary anyway.

That should leave room for the more imaginative 'personal best' type events.

I really enjoyed the regularity aspect last year, particularly as I thought it let everyone in. If it were up to me I'd make it the 'Perfect 10' event - where you are ranked on the time difference from your fastest and 10th fastest lap.
I think its much better to take a good segment of someone's day and let people push a bit (and possibly make mistakes and recover).

My last thought is that if people want to have comms/timers why not let them?

ta

LoBelly

[REPTYL]

Thank’s for engaging LoBelly.

We ran with classes almost exactly as you listed back in 2005.
The guys with modified 5 litre engines weren't happy being put in with the next class.
We only had a couple of cars in the top class and half the field in the other 2.
We also have too big of a gap in the 6lt class, with unmodified pre 1980 fords engines through to new generation Ford and Chevys with twice the rated output at the wheels.
These guys will not be happy racing with the top group.
Also factor in classes for the Mustangs and GT40s and Daytonas.

One thing I've learned organising club events over the last 10 years. When it comes to handing out trophies for classed events, we always have guys that feel hard done by.

I don't want Cobra events to go the way of many others over the years, where the biggest budget means the most trophies.

Wouldn't it be nice to know that your old stock 289 could compete equally against the race bred CTC cars? But at the same time the CTC guys could duke it out with the other racers for top honors.

Now that you have your new engine. If we run your 3 proposed Cobra class you would need to run in the mid to high 1.30s to get a trophy in your class.
I can tell you from someone who has run in this class for 8 years, that's getting very quick.

Would love to have heaps of Classes and extra events, but the number of trophies needed would be ridiculous.

Love your idea of the difference between the top 10 fastest laps. Last years calculation was far to complicated.

In regards to the Comms/lap times.
With any competition where regularity or completing specific lap times are needed these devices are a huge advantage to the few that have them.
They wouldn't be outlawed completely just in those specific events.

[400TT]

Jason, sounds good.

I certainly think it's worth trying a year without classes. With the events you are proposing any Cobra, regardless of HP, build cost etc could win a trophy.

You could also think about an event for:

Fastest session(stint). i.e. Fastest set of 3 or so laps. So it's not just someone that can throw together a lucky fast lap. But someone that can go out and go fast for all 3 or so timed laps. So you would just keep the total time of each session. The A Series racing we do up here in QLD is timed like that. Not the fastest lap, but the fastest time for each stint.

You could also do some peer vote type trophies - best sounding cobra, best looking cobra(on track), best lines, best engineered(from PhilM), most legal(roadworthy). You could get a panel together to come up with a short list and then go around and get votes for the trophies that required it. These would be more work, but that's what volunteers for for. Anyway, just some ideas.

I think a trophy for "most legal" is an interesting one and would certainly bring out some unique compeition. I know some interesting an unexpected Cobras that would top that list.

[Philm]

Jason,
Your ideas are fantastic and I love the fact that you are willing to see what the entrants would like from the event.

I would however prefer the class style competition, but as you have suggested, the classing is subjective and somewhat unfair.

Would we be able to class cars by time,

eg group 1 1.40 or quicker
group 2 1.50 to 1.40

etc etc.

The entrant will nomiate what class they would be in. The rule would be that if you go quicker than your class then you are not eligable for a trophy.

Don,t forget that we also have the motorkana, absolutely everyone has a chance at being the champion.

Would the 3 events or competitions be run at the same time on the track or do we do the fastest, then the DYO then the regulatory?

Is an entrant allowed to enter all competitions?

I would be concerned if you try to fit to much in the one day, the best thing about Shelby fest is the relaxed atmosphere.

I would enjoy the weekend what ever is decided.

Phil

[Cameron Parsons]

Jason,

I like the idea of trying a year without classes. It will reduce complexity and allow a relaxed competition without those who are either unfamiliar, or more timid. There should be no pressure to take the family jewels to the raggedy edge.

A moment in the red mist (no offense to the car and very capable driver of similar name), can ruin a proud Cobra owners year.

But I also like Phils idea of nominating in brackets. It allows the double challenge of regularity and a cap so that driving beyond limits and comfort has a negative effect.

The only hardship here is for new drivers who have no idea what bracket to nominate. If you allowed them to go out in the first session of the day and effectively 'self nominate' through performance, that might provide a solution.

The regularity would also run in the brackets.

One last comment. If you do this, then I believe this comp should be fully restricted to Shelby 'style' vehicles (Cobra/GT40/Mustang/Daytona...etc). One capable rice burner would spoil the spirit. Let them run if they like and it helps the club be financial, but the understanding should be, no rankings in the official comp.

As for the Motorkhana, keep it in as is, it's fun and fast, and ANYONE could win.

Cameron

[stephen low]

Jason

I'd concur with Cameron's comments as at the end of the day it is how fast you can circulate a track that will group a set of cars irrespective of how they are built. Of course this means like minded vehicles as cobras however set up should handle differently to GT40's and Mustangs. There are too many variables to try and bracket cars by componentry.

Not sure how wide the time brackets should be I'm guessing others with more track / race exposure could better suggest the handicap in this regard.

As a hopeful first timer, I'd agree also that we track newbies would need to let our track times lead our classification, which I would anticipate would be somewhere at the botom of the heap anyway!

I'll be very interested to see how this pans now from a practical point of view rather than just an interested spectator!

Cheers

Steve

[REPTYL]

Thanks for the input guys,

All events would run as one through out the day.
Everyone’s full day of lap times would be entered for all events.

I'm not sure how the 'class by times" would go down. For example. I can do 1:49- 1:51 all day and squeeze out a mid 1:40 occasionally. Some one else may do 45s all day and down to a 1:40. The brackets are going to benefit anyone whose lap times are already at 1:40/1:50/2mins.
I think the DYO comp goes close to this idea, but doesn't discriminate against cars doing times in the middle ranges.

The event has only ever been open to Cobras, Mustangs, and GT40's. So no chance of non-Shelby’s taking the trophies.

[Aussie Mike]

I like Phil's idea with the time brackets. It takes into account the many ways of going fast and takes out some of the disparity between driver skill versus car development. Big HP vs good handling vs driving skills. It would also be a good way to group up similar lap time vehicles and avoid the need for over taking or getting held up by slower cars in the sprints.

The motorcycle racing clubs have a grading system based on past performance i.e race wins and lap times. They have A through D grade and is a way they can have a full field on the track and race yet you still have a chance of winning your grade if not take the checkered flag.

I'm not sure on the process for moving up the grades in bike racing as it's a long time since I was involved (I wasn't much good any way) but I think if you win your grade then you automatically move in to the next grade. We could group things similarly and depending on how you set the lap time cut offs between each group. Nearly ever one would have a chance of wining at some point as the faster drivers/cars would move to the next group. The system rewards improvement regardless of whether it's guys who improve their driving skills or develop their cars.

Just a thought.

Cheers

[REPTYL]

I think the bike idea would be great if we were running several events through out the year.
But we don't, and a year is a long time between races to organise cars into groups, also taking in to account modifications done during that period and new cars and drivers.

We would also have the existing problem of to many classes (groups).

We are also trying to make the scrutineering/grouping easier and quicker.
And also take out the extra variables which can complicate the results.

I think it was 2006, we wrongly had Warrens car down as a stroker. This one error affected many results over several classes. It only takes one to slip through in to the wrong class and the S...t hits the fan.

[Wazza]

I think it was 2006, we wrongly had Warrens car down as a stroker. This one error affected many results over several classes. It only takes one to slip through in to the wrong class and the S...t hits the fan.[/quote]


Yeah it caused a few dramas ...nothing serious though.

It was actually around the other way.

I had/have a 347 stroker, and I had been taken out of the stroker class, and put in the Supercharged/Turbo group in error.

All fixed very quickly, but of course slipping me back into the correct class, while it was great to have the win, moved the current placings all down one spot...causing a few headaches.

Keeping in mind we're not racing for Sheep Stations, I'm sure a format can be set in place, so that those that win trophies are as a result of some substantial skill on the part of the driver, whilst still giving some reward to those who have invested a bucket of cash and a squillion hours in getting their beasts up to a better level than most.

Good luck with it, and I'm sure you guys will sort it out without any dramas.

Regards,

Warren.

[stephen low]

Originally Posted by Wazza

Keeping in mind we're not racing for Sheep Stations,......... and the S...t hits the fan.

From what I've heard over time I think some of the good natured banter tends to get a bit more cerial...... lol

I reckon I might be doing enough loops this time around though to keep you all entertained and distracted from any serious main game!!

Ciao

[acecob]

Keep it simple guys, 2 classes for the track and no classification in the motorkhana


Stock : Although no ones engine is stock I reckon this can be classed by cars that have mild engine builds the smaller V8 's up to say 5.8 L, street tyres

Modified: These are the cars that make things rumble like the big blocks,the multi throttle bodied, strokers & forced induction, street tyres

Slicks and race cars put you out of trophy contention


Jason your Ideas are good and I like craigs as well,

Hey but all Cobras are legal !!!!!!

What ever you guys decide Im sure it's going to be great just like the last one
can't wait, can I book No 13 for that w/end

[stephen low]

You're wrong there acecob, mine's a stock 5L and I'm guessing there'd be quite a few others stock, but time does modify these cars.

There was a time the venerable 5L produced 600 HP, and as much as I'd like a supercar engine, the 5% or less of the time I'll spend on the track makes that a waste and realistically a danger in my hands on the public roads.

But there needs to be some levelling mechanism so that it does come down to skill more than raw power. I get great satisfaction haring my crappy corolla through bends leaving much bigger capacity cars flat footed, to see them eventually straighten up and blast past finally on the straight. Anyone can go fast straight, it's those curvy bits at the ends of the tracks that are the testing bit.

To me its like those days of the mini's versus muscle, the same as the XU1 vs Ford V8's particularly in the wet. Great car handling and level-ish competition in vastly different machines - and it was the best racing you could hope to see!!

I know we'll all have fun whatever happens, but it is even better when it is all neck and neck stuff due only to driver skill.

Jason, you know you are not going to please us all, so just make the best arrangements that you can to suit the outcome you are chasing!

[400TT]

More power helps, but it's not everything, not even close.

If you look closely at the Nationals results you will see plenty of fairly low power cars running near the top of the overall results for each event. Some events in last few years have been won by such cars. A lot of it comes down to driver skill, vehicle refinement, practice, how committed you are(brave) etc.

My brother even won King Cobra a few years back with a stock 4lt Lexus engine putting out 220rwhp. Believe it or not...

Tyres make the biggest difference, why not just classify it this way:

Class 1: Standard Street Rubber
Class 2: Race Compound Street Rubber
(unregistered & cars on slicks not allowed in the above classes so maye a 3rd class for them)

Simple, yet effective.

[Cameron Parsons]

Craig,

you have have hit on a brilliant idea.

USUALLY

Standard Street Rubber = Standard Road Car Setup
Road Legal Race Rubber = Modified for performance
Slicks = All out race car

I agree that capacity does not really count too much, if you start to look at power, then you have to start to look at Power to Weight, as that is the true measure. The results of all comps prove that theory as you have pointed out.

This is a simplistic view, but that is the way you are going to nail this. Simple and broad. There will always be discussions and disagreement if you get into capacity and configuration etc..

And BEFORE I get flamed from all sides, I am not suggesting that a 289 stock on street race rubber is a true match for a BB on the same. BUT a huge amount still comes down to driver, car and practice.

I for one know that I can drive my car on the edge (that's my definition of the edge) with the power I have. If I have 200RWHP more, it would be much harder to drive and probably slower for me around a circuit, particularly Winton.

As it has been said, Jason, good for you to even try to sort this out. No matter what, the competition will be hot and the beer cold... As it should be.

Cameron
Making the advance request for 88 again, cause I'm too lazy to change the stickers from last year

[REPTYL]

Looking over some of the previous year’s results from Shelby and the Nats. I must agree tyres seem to play a bigger part in the laptimes than any other factor.

I wonder if someone could come up with a table of tyre types/specifications.
We need to be able to draw a solid line between street and street/track.

We would need to take in to account not only the size and specs but price as well. For example Yok A008 and P-Zeros were street tyres but cost 5 times more than the rags I run and have a huge advantage on the track.

We also need to make it quick and easy for the scrutineers to classify the cars by this method by having a full list of tyres from all manufacturers.

I'm feeling quit confident that a few of the ideas listed in this thread will make there way in to this year event. Keep ’em coming.

[Cameron Parsons]

Ahhh Rim Size.... Make em all run 15's -

But seriously, I think you're getting back in the problem zone to start defining 'cheap' vs 'expensive' rubber.

I run 15's, my choice, I could change and possibly gain some, but I choose not to for the look of the car. I think that type of thinking would go for many owners.

Some run 17's and other sizes, and many run very slick street 'R' class compounds. That's life.....

I think I have an idea for a source of tyre brands that are 'acceptable' that comes from an FIA sanctioned event that includes classics. Let me dig it up and send to you Jason by email.

Cameron

[400TT]

Jason, how about just using the same tyre specification cut-off that the Nationals use. I expect NSW club can give you a list.

[REPTYL]

I will be passing this by Tony in the morning before making it official.
Classification by car specification will not be happening at Shelby 08.

I think we have something for everyone.

Fastest overall, Most regular, DYO time, and thanks to Phil fastest grouped by lap times.
(The group times were set using past years results)

Event One: 3km Super Sprints
Timed runs over 3km, with the winner recording the lowest time.
Event Two: Regularity trailTimed runs over 3km, with the winner recording the lowest time difference between their fastest lap and the average of their fastest 15 laps for the day. (No lap timers allowed)
Event Three: DYO (Dial in Your Own time)There will be timed runs over 3km, with the winner recording a lap time closest to their pre selected lap time with out breaking that time. (No lap timers allowed)
Event Four: Bracket Sprints
There will be timed runs over 3km, with the winner recording the fastest lap time within their nominated group without breaking the minimum lap time for the group.
A: 1:35.000 -1:44.999
B 1:45.000 -1:54.999
C 1:55.000 -2:14.999