Classing at the Nationals

[boxhead]

What is this rumour I have heard that the Ford guys dont want to race with the LS1 guys at the Nationals?

Are they worried that there boat anchors will cause brake fade so they dont want to be in the same class?

[Philm]

HI David,
This is probably not a rumor but I think this may have sporned from the shelby fest where the LS series powered cars were in a class of there own.

The national classes are fixed and will not change from previous years.

I was at the shelby fest and had a absolute ball, however I did find the new class weird and if anything diminished the "competition".

I will jump in and have a go, I am not sure the exact reasoning for the new class however I assume it has something to do with cost and the obvious modern technology giving the owners an edge over the old school small blocks.

I think there will be a push to change it for next year, I hope it doesn't and will argue against as it is stupid, maybe changing the rules to make it easier for some to win.

I welcome the chance to complete against these engines, I just hope they last the distance

Phil

[boxhead]

I would love to race in the same class as you Phil.
My still unopened LS1 will not keep up with your weapon, but that is simply because you have spent time, money and done plenty of research to make your car what it is today, anyone can do that.

[pneall]

Phil,

It would be a sad day when you and I cant compete in the same class. and would probably be the year I stop going to the Nationals.

If you look at last years results for class 3 there is definitely no advantage in being powered by the dark side and the top 10 with a good mix of both motors were only separated by 3 seconds. I expect that the 3 second difference is related more to experience,tyres and chassis set up rather than power.

Part of the fun is the GM/Ford rivalry which from my perspective is all tongue in cheek

But it will be a good day when an LS powered Cobra takes out class 3

Phil

[boxhead]

A very good day indeed.
As long as it is competing agaisnt those Fraud motors.

[Beejay]

From what I hear there will be a couple of Darkside cars looking for fast lap times this year.

I will be happy just to make it and have the car in one piece!

Ben

[boxhead]

I am in the same boat as you Beejay

[Aussie Mike]

I'll be happy just to make it to the nationals this year.

It'd be very disapointing to see the class split. By seperating the Ford and Chev powered cars I think it will only create barriers in the club rather than bringing us all together.

Class 3 is for under 7L motors with unlimited mods (except turbos/superchargers). I can't see a 5.7L LS1 or even a 6.0 LS2 L76 having a major advantage under these fairly loose rules apart from perhaps weight but 40 or 50KGs isn't going to be a big factor in this kind of racing. There's already a fairly big difference in Cobra weights depending on Chassis type and level of trim. I don't think the engine weight is a factor that most of would notice too much unless you are comparing a 460 powered Cobra to a LS1. A few KG here and there between a Windsor and a LS motor isn't going to make a lot of difference.

Maybe some darksiders want to have their own competition but I'd rather be mixing it up with everyone else. We've found many times that HP doesn't win races in these cars and the better setup machine will triumph over the unwieldy overpowered monster.

Cheers

[Tenrocca]

Some ideas for splitting classes Ive been working on.....

* Split the field based on how much you have spent on your car (I could then go in 2 classes - what Ive really spent, and what Mrs C thinks Ive spent )

* Whether or not you have a personalised number plate. those guys should have a class all their own

* By colour...Red\Blue\Silver\Taupe\other

* Drivers suit or no drivers suit (obviously, someone who wears a suit really is serious, or just misses the 70's)

[boxhead]

If someone wants a trophy that much that they are thinking about splitting classes due to engine supplier, then I suggest we pass the hat around so we can buy them there very own little trophy.

[richardferguson]

Andrew
be ever so kind and post the pictures of your magnificent suit. To my mind it transcends all classes.
Richard

[LoBelly]

I dont think its a matter of someone wanting to ensure a trophy.

The organising bodies for the Nationals and ShelbyFest are, as far as I know, trying to give people a fair go, without fragmenting the competition into too small groups.

My (dim) recollection of the recent ShelbyFest classification was that the 5.0-6.0L group was split with LS and Modular engines being grouped together and older technology (windsor/gen) forming the remaining group.

I think the split of Street/Modified 5.0 Cobras was successful and that this was along the same lines

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken here but I believe that the view was that the newer engines were comparitively competitive but - broadly speaking - not really in the same class as earlier generation engines.

I guess where it gets a bit sticky is when people do an extensive rebuild and the inherent characteristics of the engine are no longer there, making the justification for the split a bit tenious.

Personally, I think its a good that organisers try these things out - at the pointy end nobody is complaining that they're competing against 'X' engine type or capacity.

The whole point of grouping similar engines/equipment is to give credit where it is due for set-up and skill on the day.

It doesn't stop anyone comparing results/brands etc.

I guess if the option to nominate into the new engine classification group existed then that would have the effect of denying someones LS a trophy

LoBelly

[Aussie Mike]

Granted the stock 5.0 group is a good idea. It caters to the guys that just want to have some fun in their street cobra.

The rules for class 3 give a lot of freedom with just a 7.0L capacity limit and anything goes on mods. The Fords dominating are stroker Windsors 347s etc with aftermarket heads and they are making just as much power as the LS brigade. This stroker windsor is a pretty standard combination these days (you are running one yourself) and can be built for reasonable money. These motors make more power than us track day drivers know what to do with.

With the rules theres nothing stopping you building a big stroker 351 out to over 400 cubes and make a tone of power/torque but in my opinion its not the powerhouse Cobras that will win this class.

Typically the big HP cars in the turbo and supercharged classes are slower than the quicker class 3 guys so that says to me HP isn't going to get you round the track fast. The well setup handling and breaking car with a skilled driver behind the wheel is going to come out on top. What should it matter how they make the power under the hood?

Cheers

[OZVENOM]

if some are worried about darksiders then what about the little 4.0ltr lexus powered cars .
king cobra 2 years running .
Fastest lap and 1/8 mile drags.
The smallest v8 capacity in the field. and only a little hairdryer to help them along.
maybe it should castiron block and alloy block classes.
i some time wonder what motivates people. As far as i am concerned i am there to have fun and do laps and could not care less about winning a trophy. drinking beer and driving fast not at the same time. those two dont mix well.

oz

[RODA]

Hi Guys,

Reading this this thread I was wondering if everbody is not missing the point about both the Nationals and the Shelby Fest.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the whole idea of these weekends was to go out and just have some fun. Isn't being a very part time racing driver more about going out and trying to improve your own lap time ( you and your car against the elements and your nerve ).

For me personally its about being able to drive my car to the best of my very liminted ability.

If you really want a direct comparsion between lap times you have to have very strict one design rules, otherwise what is the point.
I do alot of sailing in a one design class where everything is measured to within plus or minius 2mm.

The officals are only trying to do the right thing by everybody.

But at the end of the day is not just about going out and having fun, then siiting back and having a beer at end of day and talking about how much fun it was.

Rod

[dadndave]

Thanks Roda for not missing the point,
I have a measly but modified 289 class 2 which I know is no match against the big end of the scale, money and power. My, and my son's only aim at the Nationals , and hopefully again at Shelbyfest 2009, is to have better times and definitely as much fun , if not more at these great events.
If entrants are only worried about being beaten or outclassed by a mere name why bother coming.

[Philm]

HI Rod,
I think you have missed the point, most will agree that we are all there for fun and to bet our own lap times.

I think this thread is about class 3, the most competitive and largest class at the nationals. This class has about 10 cars within 1 second of each other in lap times.

I enjoy the competition, it doesn't matter if I take home the plastic but what I do want is the experience of competing, if I come last you will still see the biggest smile on my face.

Don't diminsh the competition I find it exciting, the biggest buzz of the year.

To get back to the thread there is no difference in performance with the ls and old school engines, if you look at the results it actualy dispproves the argument.

Leave class 3 as it is, it is awesome.

Phil

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by dadndave

Thanks Roda for not missing the point,

Originally Posted by Philm

HI Rod,
I think you have missed the point

[Beejay]

Clearly there has to be rules that satisfy both types of entrants.

I can understand those that just want to have a go, but there are others that are there to race. Let's face it, it is a competition, so people should be able to compete!

Ben

[400TT]

Yeah I agree, don't break up class 3.

Actually I think class 3 & 4(Huffer & Puffer guys) should be merged together for sprints, actually merged together for everything but the drags.

We only need to have separate classes based on engine type for the drags.

I'm with Mike, HP is not THE determining factor for sprints & hill climb. Just look at the past results, look at how competitive and successfull the top class 2 cars are and they have relatively low HP. My brother actually won overall at the Nationals from class 2, now that's the ultimate proof.

So what makes the top class 2 guys so competitive. They are the lowest class that can use race tyres and they have lots of track experience and setup time with their vehicles.

HP makes a difference in the drags, so leave engine size classes for the drags.

Just have a look at the spread of times in each class and how they overlap for sprints, hill climb & go-to-whoa, this to me indicates that we are missing the mark.

As a result I think the classes for Sprints and Hill Climb should be determined by tyres and experience. Maybe you could also throw vehicle factors in like adjustable suspension, HP, brakes, shift lights, race seats etc. Everything is allocated points and the amount of points you have determines what class you are in.

I can't see why we need so many classes for Go-To-Whoa either.

But lets not reduce the trophies, lets have trophies allocated for consistancy and even for greatest improvement from previous year. I think there are some great ideas from Shelby Fest, we could even have the dial your own time for all events: sprints & hill climb, go-to-whoa & drags. I'm sure Jason, Tony & Co wouldn't mind the Nationals adopting some of their great ideas. I'm sure others here can come up with even better ideas for trophies.

Classing by engine size/type has worked well in the past, but times have changed.