when is it not a ford?

[Bill E]

OK when dus a engine cease to be a ford of chivy or what ever, and become the creation of the builder. Most of the engines we do have a ford block and that's all. Is it really a ford? How many cobras have a stock engin?

[Excaliber]

Kirth Black Hemi comes to mind. It's NOT a Chrysler product. How about Dart? If it has a Ford, Chevy, MoPar BLOCK, then thats what is is. Bring your own heads to the party, bolt them on a Ford block, you got yourself a Ford!

Ernie

[Bill E]

Ok i see that so when dus it become a Kirth Black Hemi and not a Chrysler Hemi?

[Excaliber]

Kieth Black is not the only one who either casts or has cast fro him blocks and heads. Can't remeber who the others are, but I think they are several "independants".

Typical use is for AA Fuel dragster, radical drag boat, tractor pull, etc. Occasionally see them in a serious Hot Rod. There are based on the old Hemi, aluminum and SUPER strong. Not to mention HUGE money.

Isn't "Dart" now making a Ford "inspired" block? Which would NOT be a Ford, but some might call it that.

Ernie

[scottj]

I don't have a single factory part in my engines. The architecture is Chevy though and as a result, every racing sanctioning body in the U.S. will consider them Chevys.

A Dart, Rodeck, Donovan, KB, Brodix, or what ever will become one of those when they design their own engine based on their own architecture.

Scott

[Excaliber]

Oh thats interesting. There are "rules" about which class the motors fall into? Which sanctioning bodies apply them?

In AA fuel I wouldn't think it matters. In dirt track it might. Does it actually make any difference in what "class" a guy might run? Or is it more of a way of keeping track of who's running what? I would guess cubic inches would apply in some classes regardless of who was classified as the engine architecture.

Could NASCAR run a KB motor in any car?

Ernie

[Carroll DeWeese]

This discussion about when an engine is no longer a Ford or Chevy engine reminds me of when is a car no longer "original". If it is wrecked and all the parts are replaced, is it original? Even if the parts are taken from other "originals", it is no longer "original" although it may be composed of "original" parts. Is is a replica of its "original" self. It looks like an original and may consist of some of its own original parts, but it is not its original self. It is something close but diffferent.

If the engine is produced solely by the manufacture, it is a manufacturer's engine. If it is modified, it is something different to the extent of its modification. For convenience it may be called a Ford or Chevy engine but it is really a modified Ford, Chevy, Mopar, Dart, or whatever engine. If it is classified by who produced its block, then for classification purposes it is whatever it block is regardless of it other parts. A racing body needs to classify engines and puts them is some slot. This is like saying someone is male or female and ignoring all their other unique features.

In my car, my engine is a John Vermersch engine (the engine builder) that is built using primarily Ford parts but uses other parts as well. My engine is unique. You can call it a Ford engine, but that misses the point of its custom nature. I do not care what other may call it or how they classify it, provided that they recognize it as awesome.

[scottj]

Ernie,

I never mentioned classes and I'm not refering to dirt track specifically, although it applies to that too. I'm saying brand is determined by architecture, regardless of how many parts are substituted, including the block.

NASCAR does not allow open-competition engines. It is very specific about what blocks, heads, carbs, etc. that it will allow. I could run a KB if I wanted to and it would be considered a Chrysler or a Chevy and I'd have to put it in a like body. Most sanctioning bodies want Fords in Fords, Chevys in Chevys, etc. because fans tend to be very brand loyal.

When rules, or I should say, lack of rules allows open-comp engines, architecture determines brand.

To say a Keith Black Chevy BB, a Keith Black Chrysler Hemi, and a Keith Black Chrysler Wedge are simply KB's, and dismiss the architecture, misses the point. For if that were not the point you guys would have to let me slide with my ProPowers and ignore the fact that they're Chevys and your not going to do that.

Carroll- awesome Ford, did you go with the 427ci/Dart combo?

Scott

[Excaliber]

Scottj....OK, I get it. Makes sense.

Ernie

[Carroll DeWeese]

scottj,

I went with a 351W stroked to 408 that will run on 90 octane gas. It wants to run at least at 3000 rpm or higher. It is installed and the car has some miles on it. We are going to dyno it and tune it while fully installed in the car. I do not know what its hp and torque to the wheels is yet. I should know by the end of this week.

We did not go with the Dart, because John had not used the Dart block before and did not want to use me as a test case. He did get one and Ford Racing is now using it for test purposes.

I will give more details later when we have fully tested everything.

[Bill E]

So if we tack a Yamaha/ford/SHO v6 and have the block intake heads cast as a v12 and have KB build the crank and cams. And call it an Emerson What kind of flack would you expect. I know that the falconer eigne is on the same premise. I here it at shows all the time that just a 400 chevy whit moor cylinders. Let me tell you there is one boat load of engineering that gos in to adding a few moor holes. BillE

[scottj]

Bill- The Falconer is definitly allot more than a 400 SBC with more cylinders; about 75K more in aircraft trim.

Carroll- The Dart is probably overkill anyway. Do you know what application they're testing it in?

Let us know the dyno results of your 408.

Scott