"Cosmetic" roll bar!? Don't think so!

[rdorman]

Classic calls the driver side roll bar basically a cosmetic option . I don't know about all of you but the idea of having a open cockpit car without a functional roll bar scares the $#!^ out of me!

What have people done to make the roll bar functional but still original in style? Well I guess that is not entirely accurate. I want one for the passenger as well.

Really like the Classic but have to work through this and one more issue before I order.

Thanks

[cobrashoch]

Rdorman- DV or D.Scott will answer this to your satisfaction in due time I bet. But this much I CAN tell you right now. NO ROLLBAR IS BETTER THAN A COSMETIC BAR ONLY. The danger is on some rollovers these bars will tear loose and could amputate your noggin. Don't "EVEN" think about going there , I shiver at the thought!

cobrashock

[dscott]

Sorry I haven't replied to this. DV is the roll bar expert so I've been waiting for him to respond. He has alot of experience with the NHRA and the SCCA when it comes to this subject. So we'll wait for him.
Don

[Double Venom]

Sorry to take so long on this, one of these days "my" computer will be back up and running!

Ok then, with my some what limited knowledge, I still can't determine the type of steel CR's Uses for their bars. To me it appears to be DOM or roll bar material, it is also the proper diameter and thickness. In my opinion and others, It IS The MOUNTING PROCEDURE that makes it cosmetic.

They also indicate "cosmetic" for liability purposes. In order to get the 3 point bar to be a true "roll bar" all three legs have to be welded to the frame...read no bolts! (This apply's to CR's only people)

The manual states to drill and tap a 1/4 x 20 bolt for the main hoop to the drop leg. SCCA & NHRA have passed this, (depending on your class) but reluctanly so. They would rather have it bolted with a 5/16's bolt.

I, like many of us have seen many Cobras with the shiny side down, I personally have never seen one of these bars fail. How ever, these have all been on a track. You have to put the bar in a 3D mode in your mind. In other words, lets say you've flipped for what ever reason on the "street". Your sliding backwards, upside down, spinning and the roll bar strikes a curb. This will attempt to force the bar to the driver, thusly the reason for the forward "down" bar, OR to have the rear bar very firmly attached.

To me, and a more important and likely event than the roll bar collapsing is the "GAS CAP". If you have the single hoop, when the car goes over it WILL ride on your gas cap ripping it off or at least open! Let me repeat that, IT WILL rip it off, or at the least open. Think about this one for awhile. We have covered this many times.

Back to the "Bars". If you want a bar that is very safe, protects both the driver and the passanger then have a 4- point bar made. A simple hoop that goes behind the seats, side to side, mounts to the upper frame rail, just like CR's, then two down legs, one on each side from the bar to the frame.

We're working on putting this type bar out to the guys that want them. Here's the problem, to have a certified bar, it has to be put in AFTER the body is permanently mounted and welded at all 6 points of attachment - 4- points to the frame, and the two down bars to the cross over bar. This too will be sold as "cosmetic" for liabilty purposes. I'm sure you understand.

From here you go to forward bars, removable forward bars such as the DV II, cross bars and full cages. It all depends on what type of racing you will be doing, and what the sanctioning body's demand for the class and speed you will be running.

Phew, it's early in the AM! Not sure I was ready for this with only one cup of coffee! Am I just rambleing or has any of this made sense?

Did I mention "Gas Caps!?"

Have a great day!
DV

[rdorman]

Thanks again for another excellent reply. It was my pleasure to meet you at the inaugural Ohio Cobra Club meeting and get to take a look at the beautifully prepared DVII.

Well enough of that c(*^! I now understand why they call it a "Cosmetic" bar. If I had read the instructions that told me to bolt it in with 1/4" bolts I would get out "Engineer to Win" and double check that one! The only racing I am interested in doing is some solo, 'run & gun' types and maybe some vintage events. No serious competition.

I have always wanted two bars or one that goes across the entire car. Now I have another reason for this (Gas Cap). Never even dawned on me.

Bottom line is the question is answered and there are some very good options.

Keep me posted on CR's IRS!

[Double Venom]

Just a little clarification:

The 3rd leg to the normal type bar, or the rearward down bar is the only one that calls for the 1/4x20 bolt. This attaches the down bar to the hoop.

The main tube bolts all the way up through the rear crossmemer, (behind the seats) using 7/16's or 1/2" bolts! A nice set up actually. Just another..for what it's worth Dept.

DV

[CobraEd]

After bolting the whole thing in, couldn't you just weld a few pieces of 1/2" steel onto the base of the third leg between the bar and the frame?

[RaceDeck]

I would be really interested in seeing a finished 4-point once you have one completed. I want to make my Unique as safe a possible, while at the same time not making the rollbar an Eye-sore.
I actually have the 'Hoop' with the 3rd leg comming down into the cockpit floor ( 289 style) The Origanl owner had Unique built it this way (Nate Ricks) because he felt it was safer than the other??? he was also an avid club racer. The roll-bar is also bolted to the frame at all points.

Another concern I have with my current bar is that it sits about 1.5 to 2" below the top of my head...so at the leat, I am going to extend it 2".

Floor it! With RaceDeck!

[rdorman]

I have seen a few pictures of Cobra with the four point set up that DV described. It is just as he described, a basic hoop going from side to side. I have also seen them with two of the three point hoops mirrored for left and right ( the way I think I will be going ). I can't tell you exactly where, but just in leafing through various web sights.

I would add a inch or two to the roll bar height for a helmet as well. If not just to feel better about it. It seems to me that if the down tubes on the hoop was in front of the rear lip instead of through the body, the three legs could all be welded together and to the frame. If you want it chrome, weld the rear support to the hoop and chrome before installation. Once welded in the welds would be hidden in the trunk and behind the seat.

Unique is one of my front runners as well, don't tell DV!

Cool product you have there! By the way, I have you by a day! 1/3/64

[RaceDeck]

Well I must tell you that if you are considering a Unique, you will be very happy with the product and the customer service that the Weavers provide. If I ever buy another Cobra it will be a Unique..unless of course I go to a Kirkham.

Good Luck


Floor it! with RaceDeck!

[Double Venom]

Cobra Ed,
Yes, exactly, and do! You can use the supplied bracket for the third leg, weld it to the frame then double bolt or weld the down leg.

I knew someone was going to say something! Bolted in roll bars ARE legal, just depends on how it is bolted. What I'm saying is, in a CR car, with no other mods to the bar, it "should" be welded in.

SCCA and NHRA just dont like the idea of a bolt coming up to an internally welded nut inside the tube.

RD: Hey, Unique is a heck of a Cobra! Have you met Chris= Excessive1? He's in the Columbus area and has a beautifull Unique!

One more thing, NHRA and SCCA require at least 2"s higher than your helmet height for a legal bar. They were going to change this to three but not sure if they have yet. This is for belt stretch in case of impact.

DV

[rdorman]

I met Chris at the Cobra club meeting. He even gave me a ride in his Cobra. Unbelievable!

By the way, Classic gave me a call last night and they are sending information out to me.

[Double Venom]

Just an unofficial preview.

This is way off topic in this post but here tis'. Just some inside information. This unit has been designed strictly for a CR's Cobra. Roll centers, and all that engineering stuff have been designed into this rear end. It obviously is NOT a modified anything! Half shafts were made in England, (for what ever reason!) The engineer insisted on these and claims there is no way any DV Cobra we make will be able to twist them. The center section for our test model is an SVO 8.8 but the new models will be able to use stronger units like a DANA.

Coil over shocks will be included with your choice of shocks and spring rates, along with sway bars.

This is "the" unit that took my original DV from a .78 G on a 100' skid pad using Yokohama street tires to an immediate 1.3 G on the same pad. Hard to believe huh? I didn't believe it either until "Viper" confirmed the numbers from TRC- (Honda's test track) This is the unit that caused the front two rod bearings in my V-10 to get fried. The Viper group insists that we had to pull the 1.3 or we could never have fried those bearings. Our numbers actually came out to a high 1.2??

Oh.. one more thing it is fully capable of a 4-wheel full alignment!

Our goal is to make this available to every Cobra manufacturer and actually re-engineer it to that particular Cobra. No more modified Jag or T-bird rear ends, or SINGLE wishbone configurations!

If you have any techy type questions I'll get the answer. Remember, I am not the engineeer, I'm just the guy that comes up with this stuff! I let the real Pro's design it. Then I ge to test it!

Eye Candy for a Saturday morning:







Just one more item of interest. If your frame is still open it will take 20 minutes to install, weld or bolt in, then simply hook up and bleed the brakes- that's it!

If your car is done, read body on, etc, it can still be done without removing the gast tank! But, it will take about 2 hours including removing the old rear end.

Happy motoring all!
DV

[Dominik]

DV, Racedeck,

just finished the installation of my 964 RS' roll cage today.
So your thread comes in quite handy. My girlfriend helped me with that.

Just one point:
I would suggest a higher roll bar. Draw a line from the roll bars top to the next point on the car that scatches along the tarmac.
No, not the window frame. that will crack easily.

The fender. Check if your head with helmet fits under that line.

DV, thanks for your trust.
I always liked the idea of adding a double wishbone to my Jag rear axle.
I check the pics later, plus if you wish, I may discuss them with my chassis engineer.

Do you have a pic with the unit installed?

Dominik

[dscott]

DV, That independent rear looks way cool! Where are the attaching points? When is it available and what have you heard about cost? This should really help the people that have always wanted the independent rear without all the major mods.
Don

[Double Venom]

Don,

Look at the bottom photo. See the outer plates, horizontal to the floor, on the upper brace? Now look toward the front - see two more plates?

These can be drilled and bolted in to the existing frame work, or they can be welded. That simple.

Costs? Well I can say we wont be selling many This is a very exspensive piece with the hi-strength axles, very heavy Joints, massive brakes and calibers. Then add fabrication, parts, and labor plus shipping and the price is going to be high.

That is one thing we are doing right now is to try and some way get the cost down to what I think is reasonable with -0- reduction in engineering, strength and ease of assembly.

We can leave the coil overs off, along with the brake system, but what's the point!?

I'll keep you posted Don...It's going to be awhile but it's coming!

DV

[jdean]

If you look at the web site for JBL Motorsports, a lot of the cars they show have the double size bar with dual down tubes in the rear. These also have the top seat belt attachment on the bar. I think it is a cleaner look than the "mirror" single bar set up.

It would be interesting to see how close this type would come to fitting a CR frame.

[jdean]

Look at this link. It shows what appears to be a CR set up for a double width 4" non-cosmetic bar.

It looks strong to me. I'm not sure it is not too dominating to look at, though. What do you think?

http://www.mtdesign.com/cobra/emerson.html

[RaceDeck]

I think they look pretty good. I e-mailed them to see what they can offer for my Unique?

Floor it! with RaceDeck

[Dominik]

DV,

I spoke to the chassis engineer. He also likes the look of your rear axle. The geometry cannot be determined by the looks, of course.

He says it has taken him 7 years at the University plus 7 years in practice until he could start to design a rear axle correctly.

Just rely on your engineers that helped you.

Dominik