Classic Roaster Cooling

CobraEd · #1 (**permalink**) 07-07-2003, 12:17 PM

If I were to re-torque the Edelbrock aluminum heads on my 302, would I back off on the bolt first and then retorque in order to break the thread lock first or just tighten to proper torque? They have been on for about two years and 5K miles.

I am getting some goofy temp fluctuations that I believe are due to the crappy Classic Roadsters radiator, but I thought maybe there is a slight head gasket leak.

The car runs fairly cool around town (with fluctuations) but much hotter on the highway.

Ideas?

Ed

Ron61 · #2 (**permalink**) 07-07-2003, 12:41 PM

I think if you re-torque the heads the correct way is to back all the bolts off a little then re-torque them to the correct specs. However before I did this, I would make sure my temp. gauge, sender, and wiring are ok. Does the car smell hot ? At speed on the highway, your water pump may not be moving the water enough. Do you have to add water ? Fixit and some of the others can tell you a lot more than I about what to look for, but check the easy stuff first.

Ron

dscott · #3 (**permalink**) 07-07-2003, 06:21 PM

CobraEd, your problem is just backwards from most. Give me some details on the setup you have, fans, thermostat, waterpump, anything else in front of the radiator.
There are several other things that can make the engine run hot also. Head gasket is one, timing can be a major factor. You should check the timing at full advance to make sure the dist. is working properly. You should not need anymore than 31 or 32 degrees at full advance for a 302. Poor water pump flow, undersize pulleys, plugged radiator. If this is a new problem then I would lean towards poor radiator flow.
Normally there is no reason to re-torque head bolts.
Don

Excaliber · #4 (**permalink**) 07-07-2003, 06:49 PM

VERY skeptical re-torquing head bolts will help a cooling issue.

Ernie

CJ428CJ · #5 (**permalink**) 07-07-2003, 07:00 PM

I suspect that if you have a blown headgasket it's too late for retorquing to do any good.

fxbill · #6 (**permalink**) 07-07-2003, 08:27 PM

If it has been some time since you've done any cleaning in that area I'd take a hose with reasonable pressure and hold it up close to the radiator to flush out any accumulated junk that has possibly lodged in the cooling vanes. I've had the same problem with high speed cooling being less than at low speeds and it had to do with the airflow at higher speeds. Also check your hoses to make sure that your engine intake hose is not collapsing at higher RPMs. If it's ribbed or has a wire coil in it it should not be a problem, but I've seen it happen before and it's an elusive problem to find....at normal speeds eveything looks OK, but when you're on the throttle the hose will begin to collapse and close off the water flow.

CobraEd · #7 (**permalink**) 07-08-2003, 06:04 AM

This has been an ongoing problem since I bought the car as I recall. I think even before I put on the Edelbrock heads. It runs marginaly OK around town if the fan is on nonstop. Temp will go up if I "get on it" On the highway at higher engine RPM and load it will run about 200 gradually creaping up to 220 or so even though the wind is blowing thru hard at 60 -65 mph. Once it gets hot it takes forever to cool back down. It will puke after a highway run, but now I have 2.5 quart overflow tank so it pukes into that.

Anyway, here are the other details. I have the standard Classic Roaster custom radiator. It appears to be 4 core, but not the normal 1/2" cores. It has these friken microscopic 1/8" oval shaped cores. Very small. Over the years I have added a Mr Gasket High flow thermostat, a 2.5 quart overflow tank and a Mr Cool high flow water pump. No difference. The car has always run great from a performance standpoint. Timing is pretty advanced, but the car runs great. I have a 16lb radiator cap.

One other thing, The car was originaly built in Florida and as such the guy never put any antifreeze in it. So there was a lot of rust in the cooling system. That was years ago though and the cooling system runs clear now. But I suspect that the combination of the microscopic radiator cores in conjunction with the past rust scenario, I may just have a bad radiator. I just ordered a new dual 1" core aluminum radiator from Summit (26" x 19", but I just get a bad feeling that this might also be a head gasket due to the periodic bubbling and puking into the overflow tank.

Thoughts?

Ed

cobra427mnsi · #8 (**permalink**) 07-08-2003, 06:25 AM

CobraEd

I had nothing but problems with the Classic Roadster's radiator. It would overheat in slow stop and go traffic and when running the car up to 80 MPH. The faster I went the hotter it got. The only time it ran at a somewhat normal temp was between 30 and 60 mph. I ditched this rad and went with the griffin rad and dual spal fans fron Don Scott. It took a little fabricating of the front rad hoop holder thingy, but I have never regretted it. (my car is a 92 and I understand that the newer ones have a slight design change on the hoop holder thingy to accomodate a better rad. You should check with Don Scott for the correct info on that).

With the Griffin, my temp never goes over 195. runs mostly at around 175. I am a happy camper now !

Paul

dscott · #9 (**permalink**) 07-08-2003, 07:15 AM

Ed, I think the radiator will fix the problem. If it's getting that hot then I doubt the head gaskets are causing the overflow. The new radiator setup from CR eliminates the bottom half of the radiator hoop. You can cut it off just below the mounting point. On the 2 forward facing frame members you will need to make 2 "U" shaped brackets out of aluminum to hold the bottom of the radiator. On the top you can run a flat bar across the current upper bracket mounting points. This will allow you to reposition the upper brackets inward. Use the old brackets as a design to make the new ones out of flat aluminum. The old brackets are not wide enough for the new radiator, and the old location does not work. I would also change the fan to a 16" Spal unit. It will work to keep the engine cool with the new radiator. Purchase a relay kit also from Spal. The fan draws too much power for the stock wiring. Give me a call with any questions. 1-888-722-6272
Don

CobraEd · #10 (**permalink**) 07-08-2003, 08:09 AM

Mine was built in 92 also. Thanks for the info guys, I am encouraged that the radiator is most likely the problem. Don, if I run into trouble, I'll give you a call.

Thanks again
Ed

Robert T. Faust · #11 (**permalink**) 07-08-2003, 08:13 AM

Hello Don,
I'm also running about 200, which, from what I've heard is okay for these old FE's, but can't really get anyone to really narrow down what they should run at, just the "oh, that's okay, you don't have to worry on these until around 230 or so"?? What radiator would you run with a 428CJ? Believe it or not, since I've changed the mufflers over to straight throughs (4 inch OD, 3 inch ID) from those POS CR stepped mufflers, along with becoming a different car with the new added power it seems to be running a bit cooler. I've also added a Vintage Air 16 inch "S" type fan.
On another point, I've almost saved enough to order a set of coil overs for the rear from you, probably end of August. (damn kids are killing me with their tuitions)
Bob Faust

Clois Harlan · #12 (**permalink**) 07-08-2003, 08:31 AM

I had a similar problem but mine was a poor engine build. However, before I trashed the engine I had Arts Radiator in New Jersey build me a totally aluminium radiator (no epoxy) even my old engine ran around 200 degrees. My new engine runs at 190 - 195 (190 degree thermostat). Even at long stop lights in 90 + degree weather my engine temp doesn't move 5 degrees. Cost was about $400.

Very happy with my cross flow radiator.

http://artsradiator.com
708-782-8944
email arts@ptd.net

Robert T. Faust · #13 (**permalink**) 07-08-2003, 08:46 AM

Hello Clois,
Do you have any pictures of your radiator you could email me?
Bob Faust

nolimits · #14 (**permalink**) 07-08-2003, 05:59 PM

Clois,
you had a refrigeration unit built! well done.

The Griffin 1in core 26/19in solves the issue in most areas, and severe cases for just under $200. If you plan to stop in Death Valley, or just want some more than necessary in your radiator too, get the 1.25in core for ~$285. Don's explanation of brackets is the ticket to mount it.
This will be the spec choices in the next generation Classic 427.
Jay
Classics by Elite LLC.

dscott · #15 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 08:16 AM

That's the ticket! I use the 26x19 GM Griffin. For engines up to about 400hp I use the Spal 16" fan, for higher hp I use the Spal dual 11" setup with relays on either fan. I have used the dual setup on engines up to 900hp (blown 440 in a Cuda) and the cars will run all day @ 180 degrees. I have found no other fans that will cool like the Spal, it's the best on the market. I have a stack of other brands on my shelf that wouldn't work. Keep in mind if your car doesn't cool when you are stopped or in slow traffic but does cool going down the road, 99% of the time it's the fan. You don't need a fan when running @ 50 or 60 mph because of the airflow through the radiator. The fan should be able to keep the engine cool at idle forever. Most fans on the market are for auxillary cooling not primary cooling. That is the main difference between the Spal and the rest. Many of the fans that claim a certain CFM rating aren't even close. We tested 4 fans that were all rated @ 2000 CFM and 3 were actually about 800 CFM, the Spal was about 1800 CFM. We tested them @ a car show a few years ago with a company that had a setup for testing air movement. I have yet to have a car overheat with the Griffin and Spal setup.
Don

petek · #16 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 10:17 AM

Don,

Do you sell the Griffin radiator and Spal dual setup (or should I just order them from Summit)?

dscott · #17 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 01:43 PM

Pete, you can order the radiator from Summit. It's a Griffin # GRI-1-25222. I don't think they sell the Spal fan. I can sell you the fan for $250. You also need a relay kit which runs $50. The fan does need to be trimmed around the upper and lower hose openings. The radiator also comes with a top filler which you need to place a cap on. I usually run a 20lb cap on the rad and a 15lb cap on the in-line filler. I could get you the radiator, fan and relay setup, trim and mount the fan and ship it all to you. By the time I get everything shipped to me it would cost you about $575 + shipping of about $20.
Don

CobraEd · #18 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 02:35 PM

I ordered the Summit product as opposed to the Griffin or "BeCool". I got a 19 x 26" GM unit with dual 1" cores all welded, no epoxy for $169. Seems very inexpensive to me. Why are the "BeCool" brand so expensive?

Ed

dscott · #19 (**permalink**) 07-09-2003, 02:43 PM

Gotta spend the $ to "Be Cool" I guess. I think the Griffin is one of the best out there. The Summit is probably a Griffin unlabled.
Don

petek · #20 (**permalink**) 07-10-2003, 07:14 AM

Thanks Don... I'll check Summit.

$50 for a couple of relays? Man, I ought to start selling fan relays (worst-case price for 30A auto relays is around $3.95).

My current radiator has started a slow leak because I was too darn lazy. I installed the fan using the plastic through-the-radiator-core mounting stuff that came with the radiator. Now I've got to rip out the old radiator, put a new one in ... and fabricate a fan mount!