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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2020, 03:43 PM
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I agree with Patrick....plus you need to ground the tank entry and the entry at the Flip Top gas Cap.



Also use a Check valve on the Vent on Both sides of the Fuel Cell.





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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2020, 03:47 PM
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I ment to ask what did all the Street csx 3k cars do with the fuel cap as far as ground straps?
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2020, 03:49 PM
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Morris
I understand why your grounding the fuel thank but why the cap?
That car is a aluminum body right?
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2020, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cobrakiwi View Post
Morris
I understand why your grounding the fuel thank but why the cap?
That car is a aluminum body right?
The filler neck needs to be grounded, because while it is not grounded it is a point of static electricity conduction. Placing a fuel hose into the neck creates the loop, and we have fuel vapour right at the point of the spark path.

All late model cars with plastic tanks have a ground strap at the filler neck.

Some cars I have worked on needed to have a strap added as a rework.

Gary
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2020, 04:28 PM
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Hey Gary
So how does touching the fuel cap or the cap neck with the pump nozzle make any difference if the cap has a ground strap or not?
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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2020, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cobrakiwi View Post
Hey Gary
So how does touching the fuel cap or the cap neck with the pump nozzle make any difference if the cap has a ground strap or not?
A cap with a wiggly hinge on it might not meet the "less than one ohm" test. If it doesn't, then touching it with your hands, after rubbing your butt on the leather seats while wearing wool pants, would be just like shuffling your feet across the carpet and then touching the doorknob on your wooden door. You can get a spark if the planets are aligned just right.
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Old 12-17-2020, 04:50 PM
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FWIW, my tank and inlet are grounded, but my cap does not have a separate bond to ground. The ERA fuel inlet though, below the lemans cap, has a twist off gas cap below it, so fumes are presumably vented out below the car via the vent tubing.
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2020, 04:54 PM
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2020, 05:08 PM
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A cap with a wiggly hinge on it might not meet the "less than one ohm" test. If it doesn't, then touching it with your hands, after rubbing your butt on the leather seats while wearing wool pants, would be just like shuffling your feet across the carpet and then touching the doorknob on your wooden door. You can get a spark if the planets are aligned just right.

Yes I agree with that, so what? You will touch the cap to open the cap to fill the car right, I still don't see how that is any different if the cap has a strap to any place on the car or not.
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Old 12-17-2020, 05:15 PM
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Yes I agree with that, so what? You will touch the cap to open the cap to fill the car right, I still don't see how that is any different if the cap has a strap to any place on the car or not.
I don't see not running a ground wire to the cap as being a large risk. In theory, there's bound to be some goofy way that the charge on the cap could be different than the potential of the rest of the car. Probably because air passes over it or some such reasoning. I wouldn't worry about it though and my cap has no ground wire and I don't plan on installing one. But my fuel inlet certainly is grounded with a bonding wire. Of course, my body is plastic. At least my car's body is.
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Old 12-18-2020, 03:15 AM
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Hey Gary
So how does touching the fuel cap or the cap neck with the pump nozzle make any difference if the cap has a ground strap or not?
It is the filler neck that needs to be grounded.
The filler neck metal is nearly always isolated from the car body/chassis.
The amount of volatility that occurs at pump delivery is higher and more likely to combust from a spark, as can be seen by that woman in the video above.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2020, 09:56 AM
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The video in post 95,
I think this shows the risk at the fuel pump, it makes no difference if your fuel neck is grounded to the cars ground side or not.
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Old 12-18-2020, 11:14 AM
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The video in post 95,
I think this shows the risk at the fuel pump, it makes no difference if your fuel neck is grounded to the cars ground side or not.
Remember, the goal is to keep the potential of the different objects involved in fueling all the same, because any one particular object can develop a charge that is different than another from a million different ways. You do that by bonding each component to one another so no particular object is isolated. That means all metal pieces (even the fuel cap since we're talking theory) are wired together and your hand never leaves the pump handle, and the pump nozzle is always in contact with the filler neck. If any are, or become, isolated from the others then you have the potential for a static buildup that arcs over to a neighboring object of different potential. That's really happening all the time in your life, you just don't know it because it's at level that is low. But it's really no different, in theory at least, from a bolt of lightning that comes down and blows an office building apart. A static electricity fueling accident is pretty rare, as is a grain silo explosion, but if you can lessen the threat by just running a little wire, it's hard not to do it. I remember about 35 years ago we had one particular employee who could not use our dinosaur computer system without first putting on a wrist strap that was grounded to the keyboard. If he tried to use the keyboard without grounding himself he locked up that particular dumb terminal. That's the only person I have ever seen where that happened, but it happened repeatedly and I saw it with my own eyes time after time. We even had him strip down to make sure it wasn't his shoes or clothes or something causing it. But nope, it was him. You probably couldn't do that today. I hadn't thought of that in decades.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2020, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobrakiwi View Post
The video in post 95,
I think this shows the risk at the fuel pump, it makes no difference if your fuel neck is grounded to the cars ground side or not.
It does make a difference.

I have seen many fires in one make of car that did not have a filler neck ground strap.

As Pat has said, it is about making all metal at the same potential.
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2020, 03:48 PM
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It does make a difference.

I have seen many fires in one make of car that did not have a filler neck ground strap.

As Pat has said, it is about making all metal at the same potential.
What make of car have you seen this happen with?

Cheers.
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2020, 07:43 PM
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Damn - you all made go look as I couldn’t distinctly remember doing that on my ERAs street fuel filler when I built it about 8 years ago. Peered into the trunk and didn’t see anything there. Then I reached in to feel for something I could tie a ground lead to and there it was on the backside of the filler leading down to the tank.
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2020, 03:38 AM
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What make of car have you seen this happen with?

Cheers.
With our Australian Holden Colorado 2006. We had to add a strap to vehicles that had the rear tub removed when the owner wanted an alloy tray fitted.
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2020, 05:03 AM
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With our Australian Holden Colorado 2006. We had to add a strap to vehicles that had the rear tub removed when the owner wanted an alloy tray fitted.
Is this the vehicle you have seen many fires in because of no fuel neck ground strap?
I see that this vehicle had a call back for a possible fire hazzard due to a faulty alternator wire etc.
I did a Google on it but coming up with nothing, would you have a link to a news report or something backing your claims?

Thanks much.
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2020, 05:06 AM
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Damn - you all made go look as I couldnít distinctly remember doing that on my ERAs street fuel filler when I built it about 8 years ago. Peered into the trunk and didnít see anything there. Then I reached in to feel for something I could tie a ground lead to and there it was on the backside of the filler leading down to the tank.
Dan
Would you have a picture of how ERA, or you have added the wire to your fill cap neck?

Thanks
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2020, 07:19 AM
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Damn - you all made go look as I couldnít distinctly remember doing that on my ERAs street fuel filler when I built it about 8 years ago. Peered into the trunk and didnít see anything there. Then I reached in to feel for something I could tie a ground lead to and there it was on the backside of the filler leading down to the tank.
It should be pretty easy to find... unless it was forgotten. Here's a pic of mine. This is not my work, it was done by the elves at ERA many years ago. And by the way, I broke out the VOM and measured the resistance to ground on the filler cap itself both open and closed. It was as close to zero ohms as you can get.

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