Current FFR Bilstein Shock Issue! - Page 4

jhv48 · #61 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA

Lets see where I'm at with this time. My wife said she will not ride in the car . The cars on jack stands, there's about 6 weeks driving season left and I have'nt a clue as to what FFR is going to do about this.My son inlaw and I were planning to build a coupe for him next year. If this turns out like I think it will. We will be looking else where on that build.I will never buy a Bilstein product ever again.I'm not sure about FFR. Roger

Buy the Konis and put the car on the road! They ride much better than the Bils do!

GTA · #62 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 10:01 PM

I'd love to just go out and buy the Koni's , but I've been out of work for about 8 weeks now and don't see anything changing for a while. The job market in Michigan sucks. Every job that's open pays about half what my old job payed, and my old job had us working at a 15 precent concession. Thinking seriously about relocating out of Michigan.
Thats why I'm not buying the Koni's. But I still think FFR should do somthing about the Bilstein's. They sold them to me and said they were designed for my car.Roger

jhv48 · #63 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA

I'd love to just go out and buy the Koni's , but I've been out of work for about 8 weeks now and don't see anything changing for a while. The job market in Michigan sucks. Every job that's open pays about half what my old job payed, and my old job had us working at a 15 precent concession. Thinking seriously about relocating out of Michigan.
Thats why I'm not buying the Koni's. But I still think FFR should do somthing about the Bilstein's. They sold them to me and said they were designed for my car.Roger

Sorry for the insensitive post, didn't realize you were in such a bad position.

There is a quick fix developed by one of the FFR Forum members and it's free. He designed and is going to produce a set (4) of nuts that thread onto the threaded end of the shock and effectively moves the stress up the shock rod to a part that is not threaded. They have worked so far. Contact him and see if he has some available.

Go to the FFR forum site and do a search for "hoofa's nuts". They seem to be the best fix for right now.

Good luck.

GTA · #64 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 08:19 AM

Just got off the phone with Jason at FFR. I was told there is nothing new to report. He advised me to remove my shocks , clean them and lub the joints. Made me feel alot better!Roger

marky · #65 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 09:10 AM

The Buck is moving again!

I get slammed and am not allowed to reply, so much for free speech!

The reality is FFR will not put their hands in their pockets to fix their mistake, the expect Bilstein to do it. Bilstein only supplied the shock they were requested to...its not their problem.

So, just in case anyone is not clear we have three options.

1. Buy new shocks to replace the defective ones which shouldn't have been supplied.
2. Put the car up on bricks and look at it as an ornament
3. Put your life on the line and drive as is

TButtrick · #66 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marky

The Buck is moving again!

The reality is FFR will not put their hands in their pockets to fix their mistake, the expect Bilstein to do it. Bilstein only supplied the shock they were requested to...its not their problem.

I agree that FFR should be responding quicker and more positively to this problem as it's ultimately their responsibility. I also think they have every right to expect Bilstein to do more as well. I don't believe this is the result of a "poorly engineered front suspension". FFR sourced out the shock. They would have given Bilstein the specs and dimensions of the car and asked for an appropriate shock. They're not a bunch of inexperienced grad students and I doubt FFR just picked them from a list. If Bilstein didn't do their math, FFR could have received a less than adequate shock for the application. I've got over 60,000 miles on my ProShocks and no problems. So I guess the question would be.. Did FFR just go grab a shock off the shelf or did they request the right shock for their application and got something inferior. If you don't know the answer to this, then I would stick to holding FFR ultimately responsible and leave it at that.

Losing your job sucks BIG TIME. I would suggest working on all the other stuff you can that won't cost anything but your time. It sounds like you can build the entire car minus paint with what you have including the bad shocks as long as you don't drive it. You can easily swap out the shocks on a completed car. Just swap out the shocks for Konis when your financial position improves. If you sent Dave Smith a personal note to explain your current situation, I'm sure he'll honor the current Koni price to you within reason.

kris-kincaid · #67 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 04:11 PM

I can't believe that Bilstein is the problem. They make nice shocks. The Shelby spec racers use Bilsteins and they've never broken. I thought Pro-Shocks on FFR's broke also? Shelby has been using Pro-Shocks for several years and never had a failure. I have a hard time believing Bilstein and Pro-Shock just sends all their defective shocks to FFR and the rest of the world gets the good stuff.

TButtrick · #68 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 05:12 PM

I corrected my above post. I'm using ProShocks on my ride. Not QA1s. I'm only aware of perhaps three ProShock failures. One broken rear spring on a Coupe and two others where the shaft unscrewed from the internal piston. Nothing like the Bilstein failures. Please note.. I'm not saying Bilstein shocks are all bad, just might be the wrong shock for the application and we don't know how they were specd' in. The shaft on the new Konis are at least twice the diameter of the Bilsteins.

GTA · #69 (**permalink**) 09-12-2008, 06:41 PM

TButtrick, My car is finished . It's been on the road since June of last year. It's setting in my garage waiting for FFR to send me a product that's safe to drive on the street. I don't care what brand it is as long as there not breaking.I'm not looking for a free upgrade, I only expect to get what I payed for.Roger

TButtrick · #70 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 01:08 AM

Sorry. Missed that little detail. You're pretty much screwed then.

John McMahon · #71 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kris-kincaid

I can't believe that Bilstein is the problem. They make nice shocks. The Shelby spec racers use Bilsteins and they've never broken. I thought Pro-Shocks on FFR's broke also? Shelby has been using Pro-Shocks for several years and never had a failure. I have a hard time believing Bilstein and Pro-Shock just sends all their defective shocks to FFR and the rest of the world gets the good stuff.

You would think with multiple brands of shocks failing and folks talking about the stress of the load causing the failure, that you could determine that its a design issue and not the shock. I don't blame Bilstein for not following up.

Has FFR looked at any of the cars that have had shock failures? Is there a commonality in the type of failure between all the cars affected? I would think FFR would have inspected each car personally to determine the cause and make a formal statement. Has that happened? I doubt it.

Since these are 'component cars' I don't think they are held to the same federal standards as the 'big three' regarding failures.

TButtrick · #72 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 05:45 AM

I haven't been following EVERY failure but this seems to be isolated to Bilsteins with other brands failing were isolated to specific issues. Again, only very few failures of other brands which were not related to breaking the shaft. The common failure I've been reading of is a break at the shaft and locknut where they meet at the heim end like the pic below. What makes me think it's not the geometry is that there have been some that have failed while rolling uncompleted builds in and out of the garage. Can't be much travel in those cases.

TButtrick · #73 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 05:51 AM

and another

TButtrick · #74 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 05:54 AM

and another

TButtrick · #75 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 05:57 AM

and another

CowtownCobra · #76 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 06:37 AM

What flavor Koolaid is it they make you guys drink?

TButtrick · #77 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowtownCobra

What flavor Koolaid is it they make you guys drink?

Evidently a more tasty flavor than LS provides considering the unit volume of both. If you took the time to read the thread dipsh!t, you'd see that everyone agrees that FFR hasn't handled the problem well regardless of the party at fault. I think everyone here is trying to figure out why things are failing.

Stoney FFR · #78 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmimac351

Stoney, it sounds like you're implying there is a conspiracy about that info on the other forum.

I don't believe there is and I'm certainly not trying to imply there is any sort of conspiracy on the other forum.

Like others have mentioned, I hate that all of this has taken so long, but I still have hope that FFR will get all of this sorted out.

Stoney

BobTheBuilder · #79 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marky

The Buck is moving again!

I get slammed and am not allowed to reply, so much for free speech!

The reality is FFR will not put their hands in their pockets to fix their mistake, the expect Bilstein to do it. Bilstein only supplied the shock they were requested to...its not their problem.

So, just in case anyone is not clear we have three options.

1. Buy new shocks to replace the defective ones which shouldn't have been supplied.
2. Put the car up on bricks and look at it as an ornament
3. Put your life on the line and drive as is

Do you know for fact that it is FFR's mistake? Do you know what the purchase procedure by FFR from Bilstein was? Do you know for fact that Bilstein did not select what shock to provide?

Bilstein, as manufacturer and supplier, has the superior knowledge about the performance of their product and the suitability of its use in any application. If a buyer approaches them about a large purchase, doesn't it seem logical that they would want to make certain they supply the correct product, if for no other reason than to avoid a potential product liability issue?

Bobcat · #80 (**permalink**) 09-13-2008, 11:33 AM

TButtrick .... I don`t have a dog in this at all as I have an ERA , but I also have 30+ years in Hydraulics and over 15 years with hydraulic cylinders . A shock and a hydraulic cylinder have a lot of similarities ... piston , rod , rod end , tube , spherical rod ends etc . They also function somewhat similar . The two biggest failures I saw in the field , specifically sawmills , on kickers and set works carriages were rod end breakage and rod seal leaks . The typical reasons for rod end failures were : misalignment , undersize rod , too small rod thread and not seating the spherical rod end solidly against the shoulder of the rod . This gives you a bending moment and you will get a failure due to metal fatigue ... which is what I think I see on your pictures . Having said this , another type of failure can occur if there is a stress riser where the thread starts on the rod ... caused by the tool being too sharp and not leave enough radius at the starting point . That`s why we rolled our rod threads and didn`t cut them .
A major problem at the mills was the collapsed distance of the cylinder was shorter than the space it had to go in , so the rod end was unscrewed to compensate and a jam nut run up against the rod end . This gave a bending moment on the thread and eventually failure . A solution was to stack a spacer under the rod end and jam nut so the forces were transferred to the unthreaded part of the rod and not the threads .
Please understand that I`m not saying this is what the problem is .... I`m just putting my past experience out there as food for thought . I`m also not saying that the shock supplier has a problem ... again , just my 15 years experience in the field .... and sawmills can be hell on equipment !
Sorry for the long post .