fe block and head questions?

[wrench87]

i am getting ready to install my edelbrock cylinder heads on my 445 fe and i just had a few questions. every thing is at the machine shop so just thinking ahead.

1) does the fe block have any of the head bolt holes going in to a water jacket like on a small block ?.

2) using arp head bolts and aluminum heads what is the tourque spec?.

3) what is the tourque sequence on fe heads ?.

[blykins]

No, you don't get into the water with the head bolts. Also, the only small block that you run into that with is the 302 based blocks (and small block bowtie junk). 351W head bolts don't hit water.

Keep in mind that there are some other spots on the FE that do hit water though....for instance there can be timing cover bolts that hit water and need to have thread sealant on them. Just take a few minutes and poke around with a screw driver to see if it bottoms out or hits an area where water is.

As for bolt torque, I'll tell you this: ARP has updated their lubricant in some of their fastener packages. The ones that are updated have a piece of paper inside that will tell you what to torque to. Make sure the threads are clean, use the lube, and torque in 3 steps.

As for the sequence, here ya go:

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_.../6000/6007.pdf

[patrickt]

Pay attention when putting your head gaskets down. They're easier than you might think to put on backwards (overheating).

[blykins]

Patrick, don't tell me you've missed the big "FRONT" that's written on each head gasket.....

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Patrick, don't tell me you've missed the big "FRONT" that's written on each head gasket.....

OK, I won't tell you.

[RICK LAKE]

wrench 87 Couple of tips, make sure you are using lube on the threads, just enough to have them wet, not flooded. I don't go any more than 60 ft pounds of torque. Even with washers under head bolts or stubs you can crush the aluminum. If you are using Felpro gaskets(1020) make sure that front is front. 1 gasket will be flipped over. Sorry I forget which side. Make sure "ALL" the holes line up. If you have a dremel tool open up the oiling hole in the gasket to match the block and head. They say not to use sealer on the gaskets, I do with High Tac. IMO this stops possible leaks out of the motor and fills in uneven areas. Same thing with the intake manifold gasket. Making sure the gasket hole are open to match the ports and VERY IMPORTANT making sure the oil returns are not partially blocked between the heads and intake. Take all bolts down to 35 pounds, starting in the middle and working out ward on both ends, then up the torque 10 pounds and do this again. keep doing this until you hit the torque spec. I have a shelby block and heads. The studs are larger than FE motors. You may have to go to 68-70 ft pounds of torque to get what you want. Steady pressure. THose bolts might be stretch bolts, need to check. They feel funny when torking. Take you time is most important. The head torque spec is 95 ft pound out of the Pat Ganahl book, I think this is for an iron head on an iron block. Aluminum is less. Rick L.

[Barry_R]

This is one area where I will disagree with Rick. Happens sometimes....

Fel-Pro 1020 gaskets go on dry - no sealant at all. With both surfaces perfectly cleaned using thinner or similar. If your block was properly machined they used a torque plate for honing. You should find out what torque spec and lube they used and mimic it. I normally run around 95 pounds with ARP lube - 60 pounds will not keep the heads from falling off

I only torque in two steps. First is to around 30 pounds - just enough to establish some preload. Second step is to full torque in a single smooth sweep. I do come back after an hour or so and loosen each fastener in sequence & re-pull it. The "cold retorque" process was something learned during my time with the Fel-Pro folks (I wrote the current Fe-Pro Performance catalog nearly five years ago).

[Keithc8]

I agree with Barry R on this one. I like to use the ARP lubricant on both sides of the washers as well. Remember you do no want anygrabbing or gaulding with the washer on the aluminum when you torque the heads. I like some of the lubricant on the threads as well but a lot people do not do the washers and this is a must to get an accurate torque reading. Clean the deck of the block and the surface of the head with thinner or similiar as well for a good gasket seal.

Good luck, Keith Craft

[RICK LAKE]

Barry R The spec on the shelby head bolts for my motor is 75 pounds. They do get only 1 torque setup. I do check but not tighten again.
I talked to a couple of machine shops and got all different torque specs with different combos on the motors.
Iron heads and iron block torque to spec in manuals
aluminum heads to iron block 10 to 15 foot pounds less on torque bolts or studs in the motor.
aluminum heads to aluminum block with bolts, 10-15 pounds less with ARP
bolts or nuts must be lubed 3-4 step adjustment to get to spec.
aluminum heads to aluminum block with studs, 15-20 pounds less on dry gaskets with lube on the threads of the nut or stud.
I have seen many aluminum heads damaged around the bolt or stud holes from over tighening on either iron or aluminum blocks. The washers and nuts do less damage than the small bolt head with washer built into them. Some times you have to use these because you can't get ARP fasteners to work.
I know Felpro is where you worked for years and may have more engineering degrees, awards for EMC, and maybe 1/4 mile trophys.
Here is what I know from working with the aluminum and shelby block, you get into the 100 pound of tork on any stud or bolt and the threads start to shift in the core and pull. My CSX#52 block has received timeserts in all the holes but the head stud holes. When the motor was built in 97 I measures the heights on the studs because helicoils IMO are not the best fastener for high tork applications. So far the studs are all under .002". I have no leaks and feel that the height change is from core movement of and in the block. 4 years with your 482 kit and no problems yet.
As you and Kieth have said you run more torque. I would if this motor had a 12.5 compression, had power boosters like NOS, turbos, blower, nitro fuel. These motors are living things and need to expand and contract under the hardest of conditions. The expandsion rate on Aluminum is faster and larger than iron. The rate of expansion is faster on aluminum than iron. FElpro makes a good gasket, I just add a little help in sealing. 8 years with sealer and lower torque readings and no failures. I could have reused the old gasket with the new stroker kit, but didn't want to take any chances and cause a failure on the stroker kit. Some of the new motors out are running torque to yield specs for heads to blocks, ( all aluminum ) and are only running about 65-68 ft torque reads because of stretch bolts and size of bolts themselves. These motor are turning 7,800 rpms. The only different is multi layered head gaskets with silicone on them for around coolant passages. Except of Vette motors that are abused, these motors are going 100K+.
I don't have a living from building motors like yourself and others but believe that some specs are for old motors that are all iron. Today is different. This is 1 spec (95 ft. pounds or torque) That I don't agree with on an ALL aluminum motor or aluminum headed motor. Some times less is more, works better and no problems. Rick L.

[wrench87]

my block was decked and honed with tourqe plates,the other question i have is the machinists we use for our circle track motors use 2 different sealers on the bolt threads one swears by the brown gooey aircraft sealer and the other one uses silicone ?, i always used the white arp selaer wich would be better?.

[Barry_R]

Rick
My 95 is a generic statement - the most important one is to follow the hone process. The 95 pound number is a good one for iron block, alluminum head, traditional fastener length (non-Shelby) FE combos - like the vast majority of folks are going to have.

The factory 427 engines had much higher torque numbers of over a hundred. Your longer fasteners are going to require a lower number to reach a given amount of stretch. I have gone to a lower torque value because I felt that the aluminum heads were growing and crushing the gasket. Proper use of washers as Keith noted helps reduce the bolt hole damage a lot. Blue Thunder heads have pressed in bolt seats which eliminate the problem entirely.

OEM head gasket and fastener combinations are a sealing system defined after extensive lab testing. The fastener clamp load is determined by torque/angle and/or stretch with reduced cross section fasteners being common to maintain an even load. The MLS gaskets they use are designed to function as springs allowing vertical head movement without losing bead contact and sealiing. They also have gone to floating decks where the cylinders are not interconnected and no combustion sealing ring in the gasket.

Unfortunately we cannot draw a fair comparison between the gasket sealing technology they use now and our ancient stuff. Adopting only a part of the system does not guarantee the results. The glue you're using on the head gaskets will help make up for any fluid loss or migration between the aluminum block and aluminum heads - I have one pretty good builder/friend who uses copper coat on his aluminum/aluminum engines but nothing on the iron block combinations. Just because I don't like it does not mean it won't work.....

[blykins]

I use the ARP or white Permatex sealer.

[Michael C Henry]

Are you going to use the ARP head bolts or studs? The struds have fine threads on the top as I remember. I used the studs kit and I have cast iron block and alluminum heads. ARP has a whole host of neat produsts that make it much better.

[Excaliber]

I always figured the 427 higher torque set point was due to the typically higher compression of an original 427? While I did use the 100-105 torque setting, my current engine is only 9.6 to 1 when it USED TO BE 12.5 to 1.

So I was just thinking with the reduced compression, perhaps the 100-105 is a bit over kill for a 427. Original iron heads on mine, by the way.

[wrench87]

i am using the arp head bolts, i have the studs also, but when the cylinders were done bolts were used for the tourque plates and i wont have to machine the erson rockers for clearance.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by wrench87

i am using the arp head bolts, i have the studs also, but when the cylinders were done bolts were used for the tourque plates and i wont have to machine the erson rockers for clearance.

And depending upon how your engine sits in the engine bay, using bolts instead of studs could make it easier to remove a head if needed without raising or removing the engine.