Tired and frustrated with the glycol in oil leak..

[scottj]

I had the same thing happen on my first aluminum block. I was not aware that the block used a special stud with 1.75" of thread that bottoms in the hole. The standard stud pulled a chunk of the block out between cylinders. I used the argument that since they included a list of required special components with the block, the studs should have been listed. The Chevrolet Racing dept ended up raplacing the block.

[undy]

Yep, it's the old hind sight thing on the head studs...

I did have a lengthy conversation with Barry this AM. I know it's been said before, he's a great guy with tons of knowledge that has a passion to help fellow FEers... Kudos to you sir!!

It seems that the Pond block's head bolt holes are not heli-coiled, just raw aluminum and are threaded 2" deep (as I'd measured). Barry suggests NOT USING a time/big-sert as the intention of the head studs are to grab the block as deep in the casting as possible. He likes Heli-Coils. The time/big-sert will only grab a max of 1" deep and that's at the top of the hole. Heli-coil does makes a 1/2"-13 insert that's 1 1/2" long that I can bury at the bottom of the existing 2" theaded hole. Since it's not had an insert already I can use a standard diameter heli-coil. I'm starting to get a warm fuzzy about the repair.

The head gaskets... Barry doesn't like the Cometic MLS gaskets for one reason. Cometic fails to install an embossed water passage sealing ring around their head gasket's water ports. The FEs being somewhat unique WRT their oil passages near the water passages this become very important. With his advice I'm tending to lean towards the Felpro 1020s..

BTW... YOU GUYS ROCK! Thanks to all for the wonderful support and advice that was given. It was always considered and sometimes followed More to follow....

Dave

[rustyBob]

so....you went from a leaky intake (maybe).....to a leaking head gasket.....and now you have head bolt threads that have pulled out of the block....talk about bad luck....are studs the way to go to solve this or are you going to take your chances with bolts again? and do you think now that the intake had anything to do with part of this problem or was this all head gasket??

[undy]

Originally Posted by rustyBob

so....you went from a leaky intake (maybe).....to a leaking head gasket.....and now you have head bolt threads that have pulled out of the block....talk about bad luck....are studs the way to go to solve this or are you going to take your chances with bolts again? and do you think now that the intake had anything to do with part of this problem or was this all head gasket??

Yep their block was designed for studs that go all the way down in the threaded 2" holes. Pond has them special made for him by ARP. I am in the process of buying a set now.

The intake probably was fine and the leaking head gasket caused the whole problem. I still have no regrets pressure testing and getting the intake vacuum casting impregnated though...

[rustyBob]

I guess the intake is a "better safe than sorry" thing....
the studs is one of those things that the manufacturer could/should supply with the block when you buy it new.....

[undy]

I'm glad I had the manifold sealed. It has always caused me some concern with repect to leaks. At least that's one thing I can check off the list that I don't have to worry about.

Keith's got me a set of the Pond head studs coming. Brent has some head gaskets, SCE copper header gaskets and misc parts on the way too. I FleaBay'd a 1/2-13 helicoil insert kit and ordered some 1/2 x 13 x 1 1/2" (3D) inserts online. The 1 1/2" long helicoils will give me all the strength I need and allow me to sink the new threads all the way in the bottom of the hole. I want the new hole to grab the stud at the same point down in the block as the other holes.

[Excaliber]

I wonder if the alloy manufacturers don't include the price of the studs because they cost a LOT!! So the "advertised price" for a plain block "looks good". Buyer beware...

I'm reminded of a recent thread by Brent, B2Motorsports about his COMPLETE small block at a certain price (forget what it was). Someone mentioned they could get a Ford Racing small block for less. BUT, B2's motor really is complete, with all the details. Ford Racing will leave you scrambling not only for a ton of additional parts (intake, carb, flywheel, the list is long) but also BOLTS and NUTS and WASHERS and that little stuff that becomes irritating to get together.

But what does a typical consumer see? B2's price is more than Ford Racing price. Well DUH, you get what you pay for!!!

This thread leaves me without a warm and fuzzy feeling toward Pond, I'll tell you that, and I suspect Shelby and Dove play the same game. It aint cool man, someone needs to call 'em on it.

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I wonder if the alloy manufacturers don't include the price of the studs because they cost a LOT!! So the "advertised price" for a plain block "looks good". Buyer beware...

I'm reminded of a recent thread by Brent, B2Motorsports about his COMPLETE small block at a certain price (forget what it was). Someone mentioned they could get a Ford Racing small block for less. BUT, B2's motor really is complete, with all the details. Ford Racing will leave you scrambling not only for a ton of additional parts (intake, carb, flywheel, the list is long) but also BOLTS and NUTS and WASHERS and that little stuff that becomes irritating to get together.

But what does a typical consumer see? B2's price is more than Ford Racing price. Well DUH, you get what you pay for!!!

This thread leaves me without a warm and fuzzy feeling toward Pond, I'll tell you that, and I suspect Shelby and Dove play the same game. It aint cool man, someone needs to call 'em on it.

I don't know...

From a cost perspective, if I was building a good iron block side oiler I'd want a set of new head studs to provide me with the virgin clamp I felt I needed. I wouldn't expect the iron block MFR to provide them either. The special 12 point ARP stud kit that Pond has made for them is actually less than 50 bucks more than the run-o-the-mill ARP FE stud kits that Jegs sells.

From a notification perspective, I do think either the MFR, builder or the vendor should notify the customer of the requirement if they are just buying a block, or shortblock.

Originally Posted by olddog

A good engineer told me that a good rule of thumb is "the thread engagement needs to be at least the same length as the diameter of the bolt." In other words, a 1/2" bolt needs a 1/2" of threads engaged. Now that is for steel and course threads.

Aluminum is a very poor metal to put threads into because it slowly creeps over time. Lots of different grades, with some much better than others. The extremely long threads makes sense in aluminum. As the aluminum slowly moves, the load will eventually even out over all the threads.

This explains why the bolt torqued solid, and over time the threads pulled out. What is bothering me is "if one bolt pulled out what do the other ones look like?" Remember you said the other head had a slight leak at the gasket too. Has some of those bolts stretched the threads and are no longer at torque? Could all the holes have the threads stretched.

I hate to be spending your money, but you said you like to overkill everything. Should all the holes get heli-coils put in them?

I hear ya...

When I get the new studs they're going to grab 100% more theads than the bolts did. I checked the torque and they all were still solid, with their original clamp. I will get a "feel" for the threads when I pull the bolts. I will also do a close inspect when I have the heads off. Also, in talking with Robert Pond he recommends running a bottoming tap in every hole. He said I'd thank him during assembly.

Ernie ... What you said.

Originally Posted by wetdog

I have been following your problem and I have to say that you were tenacious enough to keep at it ..sorry you missed some summer driving time but it has to feel great to finally know what caused your milkshake!
During my build I had a few bumps and after I figured them out it was the biggest relief ...mostly my wallet , hang in there and thanks for taking the time to post and take pics WD

Thanks Wetdog

As with everything like this, you never know what kind of curve that'll get thrown at ya. I kept fiddlin' with the intake, focused that it HAD TO BE THE PROBLEM. Everything pointed to it. 1) It was made by Dove 2) The leak started after it's installation. 3) It was pressure tested and repaired (last tear-down) so it had a history. 4) All the planets seemingly aligned..

New motto, if it tests good then maybe it is good ... (for now)

[olddog]

A good engineer told me that a good rule of thumb is "the thread engagement needs to be at least the same length as the diameter of the bolt." In other words, a 1/2" bolt needs a 1/2" of threads engaged. Now that is for steel and course threads.

Aluminum is a very poor metal to put threads into because it slowly creeps over time. Lots of different grades, with some much better than others. The extremely long threads makes sense in aluminum. As the aluminum slowly moves, the load will eventually even out over all the threads.

This explains why the bolt torqued solid, and over time the threads pulled out. What is bothering me is "if one bolt pulled out what do the other ones look like?" Remember you said the other head had a slight leak at the gasket too. Has some of those bolts stretched the threads and are no longer at torque? Could all the holes have the threads stretched.

I hate to be spending your money, but you said you like to overkill everything. Should all the holes get heli-coils put in them?

[Excaliber]

I don't know Olddog, in this case he has potentially a lot of thread left at the bottom of the hole, adding the studs and using all the existing thread should do the trick. Of course I'd repair the hole in question and inspect the others.

My concern with something as important as the block would be to do as little as possible to preserve what I got. There is always the potential for things to get ugly if you heli coil enough of those holes, binding, drilling off just a bit, helicoil sticks and won't thread correctly into the new hole. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I've had a couple of heli coil installation jobs that took a left turn and ended up being a real nightmare. Less is better in my book, which is why I would probably try a chemical fix myself as the first step. Thats a hard call though, yeah, I might go helicoil first time in this case (for ONE hole).

[wetdog]

I have been following your problem and I have to say that you were tenacious enough to keep at it ..sorry you missed some summer driving time but it has to feel great to finally know what caused your milkshake!
During my build I had a few bumps and after I figured them out it was the biggest relief ...mostly my wallet , hang in there and thanks for taking the time to post and take pics WD

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

There is always the potential for things to get ugly if you heli coil enough of those holes, binding, drilling off just a bit, helicoil sticks and won't thread correctly into the new hole. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I've had a couple of heli coil installation jobs that took a left turn and ended up being a real nightmare. Less is better in my book, which is why I would probably try a chemical fix myself as the first step. Thats a hard call though, yeah, I might go helicoil first time in this case (for ONE hole).

I have done a few over the years. I usually have more issues with cutting good clean threads than anything else. Especially aluminum. It cuts so easy your tempted to turn too far before turning backward to cut the threads off. I do know that heli-coils need very good threads.

[cdnus]

Maybe the resident aluminum expert could offer some helpful advice at this point ??

Are you there David?

Craig

[olddog]

If the torque on the other head never changed, why was the gasket leaking. Too high a pressure on the pressure test? Maybe.

I think you said that you put the heads on, but someone else assembled the short block. I have had builders claim they have never seen a new block that everything was in spec. Were the decks checked? I think I would give them a good look over. Straight edge and feeler gauges plus a look for scratches and what not.

You said you would have a kiss cut on the heads. Won't hurt anything and may help.

On the head studs, it would be interesting to screw a few in by finger and make sure they don't stop at the point where the bolts ended. If they go right in, the bolts never damaged them. I would still run the tap through them as recommended.

PS
If there is a big step where the bolts ended, you might want to run a regular tap past that point first to blend the step. Then run the bottom tap.

[undy]

Originally Posted by olddog

If the torque on the other head never changed, why was the gasket leaking. Too high a pressure on the pressure test? Maybe.

I think you said that you put the heads on, but someone else assembled the short block. I have had builders claim they have never seen a new block that everything was in spec. Were the decks checked? I think I would give them a good look over. Straight edge and feeler gauges plus a look for scratches and what not.

You said you would have a kiss cut on the heads. Won't hurt anything and may help.

On the head studs, it would be interesting to screw a few in by finger and make sure they don't stop at the point where the bolts ended. If they go right in, the bolts never damaged them. I would still run the tap through them as recommended.

PS
If there is a big step where the bolts ended, you might want to run a regular tap past that point first to blend the step. Then run the bottom tap.

Quite honestly, under normal operation, I don't think the other head gasket would have been leaking. It was pressure tested to 30 psi, double max operating pressure. (the other head gasket started leaking at less tha 5 psi) At the point of that head's pressure test I'd already made my mind up to pull that head too, due to the head 000bolt issue. I just wanted to see what it did at various pressures. The leak was tiny with nitrogen. With water and it's larger molecular size it might not have leaked at 30 psi. When the engine experiences higher coolant system pressures it's typically already warm so the clamp on the gasket is a tiny bit greater. I do believe this is what pulled that head bolt loose. After seeing all this I've made up my mind that I'm going to put a small bead of RTV around all of the block to head coolant ports though...

As far as the short block, it was run through one of the finest FE builder's CNC block machine. It was also assembled by them.

In talking with Barry R I do have an item in the short block to check. It seems that Pond aluminum blocks have pressed in ductile iron sleeves. Barry has seen several blocks after a problematic tear-down where the sleeves weren't entirely seated on the bottom stepped groove. What happens is under operation and the clamp of the head gasket's compression ring the liner finally comes to rest. The problem is, now you have a liner below deck height and a head gasket compression ring that's no longer compressed. You end up having to re-deck the block (complete tear-down) The positive side is, it does happen v-e-r-y infrequently and it's typically found after a leak from the compression side of the head gasket. I don't have any compression leaks, that I know of. Rest assured there will be a close inspection.

I will only have the heads cut if they show any signs of warping. I'm getting hold of a machinist's straight edge and I've got my feeler gauges in hand. The manifold's been cut to give me perfect port/block alignment so I really don't want to change things unless I have to. I will clean them up nicely though.

I will do a close inspect and test fit on the existing threads. They will be chased regardless.

I will make a 2 x 4 wood jig for the initial helicoil bore job. It will allow be to be 100% perpendicular to the deck surface when I hand drill it. Barry stressed this, big time. I'll be using my trusty 14.4 DeWalt for the drilling duties... I would rather have the drill stall then grab 'n twist at an odd angle. I'll use plenty of drill/tap/thread cutting fluid during the operation, along with a operational wet/dry vac with it's nozzle duct taped at the drill site. After the helicoil's in I'll set a head on the block and run a test fit on the hole's new stud.

[Jerry Clayton]

Don't use a 2 x 4

get a piece of thick aluminum that is long enough to bolt down with one head bolt and a hole for the tap size drill at the proper spacing for drilling out the old hole---also drill another hole the same distance and actually run the helicoil tap thru it as a guide---1 inch thich is probably enough ,,, thicker is better(more guide)

[dcdoug]

They also make tap guides.....although probably not as good as a purpose cut piece of aluminum like Jerry suggested.

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Gator-Tool.../dp/B000ZN30U4

[undy]

I got the special head studs from Keith today in time for Sunday's work (as usual excellent service!). It's really good see those 2" long block threads. These puppies should do the job!

[FUNFER2]

Hey buddy, I'm curious. Why did you not use studs rather than bolts from the start ? If this question has already been asked, I apologize, I'm too lazy to read 17 pages.

(it was great talking with you today)

[undy]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Hey buddy, I'm curious. Why did you not use studs rather than bolts from the start ? If this question has already been asked, I apologize, I'm too lazy to read 17 pages.

(it was great talking with you today)

Good talking with you too!

I didn't know about the stud requirement for the Pond block, nobody told me. I already had a set of almost new ARP head bolts so I reused them. As they say, hind sight's 20/20.

If you are going to run any aluminum block FE motor you might as well plan on running studs. The Shelby block's studs are set deeper in the block than Pond's. The Shelby studs are 75% more $$ that the Pond's studs.

I'm not really thrilled about the negative aspects of studs either... I do think they give better clamp though.


Ain't you glad now that you're going with Genesis Kev??