Finally made some pulls on the 527 Cammer

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by John Martin

You can get a 500 dollar hooker or a 5 dollar hooker too.

Id rather have 100, 5 dollar hookers, than one 500 dollar hooker, anytime. A hooker is a hooker.

[67FEfastback]

You know I am real impressed with the new engine packages and offerings, from ford and chevy. Gives builders a nice choice, for powering their restorations, or modified cars.

Our car club recently hosted a "roush night" at a local ford dealership. There were the top offerings there from roush, including "the hammer", the new boss 302 etc etc.

I didn't want to leave my car on the street, so I parked in a no-parking lane, in front of their service centre (away from the test cars.) The body shop manager came out, and we chatted for quite a while. He commented that is was interesting that all these people who came to test drive the roush's etc. were losing their place in the queue, to come over and look at my car.
I asked him, if I should park out in the back? He said hell no!

Incidently there was a drop-in s/c roush motor, for sale there, based on the new ford offering. $30K
Still had more people looking at that old oil seeping FE

As far as a driving report. I took the roush out for quite a good long drive. A nice smooth running engine, which made a good amount of power after the supercharger kicked in. A nice civilized car.

I just like being uncivilized

[philminotti]

Fordracing-

Why are you so confrontational? Every time you contribute to a topic, you seem to need to re-affirm how a modern small block trumps an FE. Guess what? We know. That really wasn't the point of the thread, and I'm sure you know that. This site has lacked a good confrontational poster for some time. Having been on this site for 10+ years, I applaud you for taking up the mantle of some legendary douche bags like Cracker and Sizzler. I truly mean that.

To reiterate, I built my FE because it's really cool. I probably have more money than brains. We all know a modern, forced induction, canted valve motor will kick a cammer's ass on cost, performance, and reliability. We know. And you know that we know. So your point is to stir up the old, tired debate. Congratulations. Why can't you celebrate the resurection of a legendary motor instead of telling us how superior your soulless, albeit cheaper small block is? You should be in Congress.

[fordracing65]

Lets do this one more time, for fun

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

This motor weights around 630 pounds and puts out about 730 hp the the wheels, what is so impressive about that, my 427 sbf stroker makes 515 wheel hp and weights under 400 pounds, you do the math, its the same output, just supercharge a small motor, all the power, no weight, for an engine competition cool, for street more of a conversation piece

Here is my original post, nowhere does it say this is'nt a cool motor, nowhere does it say the gentleman who owns it cannot build engines, it clearly states I think more power can be had for a much cheaper price, example with my small block, the engine weights 400 pds with 515 hp thats 115 difference, the cammer is 630 pds and has 730whp, thats 110, see its not saying the cammer sucks anywhere, its just an opinion, so how did my story get so changed around, I wonder.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by philminotti

Fordracing-

Why are you so confrontational? Every time you contribute to a topic, you seem to need to re-affirm how a modern small block trumps an FE. Guess what? We know. That really wasn't the point of the thread, and I'm sure you know that. This site has lacked a good confrontational poster for some time. Having been on this site for 10+ years, I applaud you for taking up the mantle of some legendary douche bags like Cracker and Sizzler. I truly mean that.

+1

I miss Evan (Real One). He constantly "banged away" about CSX being the only REAL Cobra every chance he could get.

FR65's issue(s) is/are value and money.

I agree with him. The SOHC is overpriced in terms of $ per HP. Further, I can't believe some "butthead" paid $4,000,000 for a 4-cylinder at auction in May 2011. I mean, what the heck is the $ per HP there.

RM Auction Preview at Concorso d'Eleganza Villa d'Este | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

If you have money, then you don't fret a few extra dollars here or there.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

Here is my original post, nowhere does it say this is'nt a cool motor, nowhere does it say the gentleman who owns it cannot build engines, it clearly states I think more power can be had for a much cheaper price, example with my small block, the engine weights 400 pds with 515 hp thats 115 difference, the cammer is 630 pds and has 730whp, thats 110, see its not saying the cammer sucks anywhere, its just an opinion, so how did my story get so changed around, I wonder.

But you're also inferring or saying that the SOHC engine "for street is a conversation piece." It can't corner because it weighs too much and it can't get down the 1/4 mile strip fast enough.

Do you know that Jay Brown, from the FE Forum, has a 1964 Ford Galaxie, which won Drag Week 2009 with a NA 585" SOHC (9.50s @ 143). And I'm sure he's posted better numbers more recently, but I can't access that fast enough.

A Galaxie! Oops, I forgot, you're counting money. It's an awesome engine and think nearly everyone here on Club Cobra would want one, maybe two.

[fordracing65]

Again your assuming things, never said down a drag strip its not a fast car, quit twisting things around, it makes a ton of power which can be had for a cheaper price, thats all. Get over it already. (around corners i am saying that)

[Stentor]

FR65,

What kind of motor do you have in your overpriced Kirkham? I can't believe you'd pay the premium for a Kirkham; you could build a FFR--that handles better--for much less money.

Sounds like you've got an interesting stable of three cobras.

What are the specs on the motor that Kieth Craft built for you?

[fordracing65]

So I say a Cammer is overpriced, but you can critisize a Kirkham on price, and who is calling the kettle black? Nice way to offend the Kirkhams, Stentor.

[67FEfastback]

So you can buy a 5 litre and wiring fo just under 10K

You can buy a supercharged roush 5 litre fo 30K

You can buy a shelbized 5 litre for even more 30K+

and you can buy a cammer for 40K

you can buy a renewed boss 429 for less

you can buy a 460 ford without the 429 heads, which will make even more power,than the 429 replica, for less yet

kaase also has engines for much more than 30K, which are not cammers or boss 9 engines

It does not mean any engine, is better than any other engine. They all have a purpose.

Saying the cammer is overpriced at 40K is the same as saying a shelby 5 litre coyote engine is over priced.

BBC offshore powerboat engines, will set you back more than your complete cobra and engine, and usually there are two. Props can be 5-10K per pair.

Yeah maybe hanging a fuel injected high horespower outboard on a canoe, will go faster, and be cheaper than an offshore cat with twin 1250hp BBC's

fr65's comments are entertaining but inane.

Anyway the cammer is awesome, and anytme someone want's to drop it in my car, no problem

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by Stentor

FR65,

What kind of motor do you have in your overpriced Kirkham? I can't believe you'd pay the premium for a Kirkham; you could build a FFR--that handles better--for much less money.

Sounds like you've got an interesting stable of three cobras.

What are the specs on the motor that Kieth Craft built for you?

How does this work, you have a shelby glass car and you call a Kirkham overpriced. And my commets are ignorant. Please. Nice way to offend the Kirkhams.















h

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

Again your assuming things, never said down a drag strip its not a fast car, quit twisting things around, it makes a ton of power which can be had for a cheaper price, thats all. Get over it already. (around corners i am saying that)

Again, you're missing my point. I agree with you. Keith Craft sells an all aluminum Cammer for $38,000. I think Barry's engine is mid-40's, if I had to speculate.

Alot of money, but you and I aren't buyers. Well, maybe me down the road.

Here's one more point. Barry posted his gorgeous engine on this site and gave us the dyno info with video. Then you "tinkled" on his thread. You can make more HP for less money. We all get it. No one is twisting your words. Just don't "tinkle" on other people's threads. You brought negativity to the proceedings here.

Focus less on money and more on forum etiquette.

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

How does this work, you have a shelby glass car and you call a Kirkham overpriced. And my commets are ignorant. Please. Nice way to offend the Kirkhams.

FR65,

I was being facetious in an attempt to make a point (i.e., mirroring the "logic" you were using regarding the cammer), but clearly, it went over your head. The Kirkhams make an awesome product--that is really the pinnacle of Cobra replicas (I've lauded the Kirkhams and their products myriad times on the forum).

Originally Posted by fordracing65

And my commets are ignorant. Please.

Well, you do make a pretty good point regarding your comments.


You never answered my question, what kind of motor do you have in your Kirkham?

[Stentor]

Awesome motor, Barry--thanks for sharing the pictures and details.

[Barry_R]

I don't really mind the commentary. It keeps the posting up top.

This engine is a lot more exotic than a "normal" Cammer - and the performance reflects that. It is supposed to be an obsolete design from a combustion chamber and induction perspective - yet it just delivered 1.65 horsepower per cubic inch and 1.37 pounds of torque per cubic inch at 11.5:1 compression. Those are very solid numbers by any standard and exceed the best results I have had from a much more modern and comparably developed wedge headed package. This is a very telling comparison that certainly should change some commonly held views, and backs up what the Mopar guys have been claiming - and proving in NHRA competition - for years.

Consider that the common parking lot comment is that overhead cam engines or true hemi headed engines don't make as much torque. Obviously very wrong - - 722 pounds wrong!

For comparison's sake a 330 inch 5.4L engine would need to make 545 horsepower naturally aspirated to meet that same standard. Since we are talking efficiency we can add in the fact that the physical footprint of both the Boss 429 and the Cammer is similar to the 4.6/5.4 family despite the displacement. We tore down Mark McKewen's 4.6 SOHC and this engine side by side at the University of Northwestern Ohio and the similarities and design inspiration were very clear. If anything, the intake tract of the old engine was superior - far straighter - but not held under the constraints of hood clearance. The induction package on this engine is dramatically better yet, but the ports are nearly the same cross section as the originals.

Comparisons to boosted applications are not very meaningful. It would be fairly easy to hang an F3 and engine management onto this to get power numbers in the twilight zone - probably 1500 and more. That was never the point.

Comparison from a dollars spent perspective are only marginally more valid. You could build one of these with a cast stroker crank, more "normal" heads, catalog pistons, inline carbs on a "normal" intake and save a ton of effort and money. It will still make very good power and be very cool. I suspect that most of the ones built for customers will be of that sort. But this excersize is about pushing the design envelope and getting the most power without compromising durability or comparable behavior. Lessons learned from this build will improve future engines.

I don't care whether the new owner for this engine puts it into a Cobra, a Galaxie, a Mustang, or whatever - as long as it gets used.

If you're simply chasing a power per dollar and power per pound target you'll build a blown junkyard LS1, stick it into a Solstice, and be done with it. Nothing in Ford's stable even comes close. But then again it also looks like a toaster in comparison....

[lovehamr]

Question for you Barry; if you were going to put that monster in a car that you wanted to go around corners, what would you do with the intake? I ask because it seems that there wouldn't be a way to control fuel under high lateral loads and I was wondering what someone with your experience would do to remedy that without losing to much power.

For those who would jump on the weight in this discussion, that I've discounted as any car that would really be going around corners would most likely have the lump well behind the front axle line thus distributing the weight front to rear. Yes, weight is always a factor in vehicle dynamics but one who would be after the cool factor and power of this mill would most likely just deal with it. That's my way of thinking anyway.....

[Barry_R]

These days the best way to control fuel in lateral loads is to use eight injectors with bungs welded into the manifold and a computer. Never tried it, but the same strategies employed in hard leaving drag cars might work well with sideways mounted carbs in turns - jet and power valve extensions and angled/cut floats.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I don't really mind the commentary. It keeps the posting up top.

And one of the reasons why I stayed in this thread for so long.

I think the LS1 in a Solstice just gave fordracing an idea, but I'm thinking that the LS1 in a Solstice may not corner well enough.

Again Barry, great job and thank you for posting on Club Cobra.

Plug Time: And for those of you who don't know, Barry also has written a book on FE's, so if more FE info is needed, just look for his book. A must read for any FE fan.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Again Barry, great job and thank you for posting on Club Cobra.

I agree, this is a WAY cool engine that needs no apology on any level. Who gives a sh!t if equal or more power can be had for less money. A guy builds a highly exotic engine, posts it up for all to see (video gave me a boner personally) and someone has to come along and turn it into a Kirkham vs FFR vs SBF vs FE fight.

Keep up the good work Barry, when my oil well comes in (or I get these kids out of college) I'm buying one.