427 runs too hot

[jojoegen]

I have a shell valley cobra.I have read everything I could and this radical 427 Pond iron block with edelbrock heads,560hp will run too hot at idle.Go figure.Tested engine heat with heat gun.does not show overheating so tested guage and sending unit with another and it is running hot.Checked lower rad. hose for collapsing and it,s good.It has a Kirkham expansion tank.Timing is 36 all in.Fan has no shrowd.16" puller fan works great.It's a new Keith Kraft engine and set up by him.I,m thinking that the March pullies are the problem.They are their underdrive which looks like they are almost the same diameter.They don't have anything more for this engine.I need to know where I can get a larger crank and a smaller waterpump alum. or shiney pulies that will let the pump run faster.If I look in the expansion tank very slow flow.Maybe a thermostate opening is too small..It does work (180)but maybe the opening size is too small.I read about using a dodge therm. and cutting the edge down will work beacuse the therm. hole is larger.Any help would be appreciated cause I'm frustrated and only used it once since new.Thanks my friends.John

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by jojoegen

I have a shell valley cobra.I have read everything I could and this radical 427 Pond iron block with edelbrock heads,560hp will run too hot at idle.Go figure.Tested engine heat with heat gun.does not show overheating so tested guage and sending unit with another and it is running hot.Checked lower rad. hose for collapsing and it,s good.It has a Kirkham expansion tank.Timing is 36 all in.Fan has no shrowd.16" puller fan works great.

This is an issue. If it runs hot at idle and not while moving, that tells you there's not enough air flow to keep the fluid cool.

A shroud allows the fan to draw air through the entire core. Without a shroud, the air is only pulled through directly beneath fan. So probably only about 60% of the core is being used.

[Bill Bess]

This issue is a continuing problem with FE motors..not enough air flow.
Check out numerous other discussions on this subject on this club site.
Many heating problems solved using a ford Taurus fan , two speed with appropriate wiring set up.

Check it out..fixed my heating problem even in 100+ weather here in AZ.
Bill

[vettestr]

Add me too the list. It fixed my heating issues but make sure you have a good charging system to make everything work properly.

Quote from Bill B. " Many heating problems solved using a ford Taurus fan , two speed with appropriate wiring set up. "

[Dwight]

what is the cfm of the fan?

what do you call overheating?

Several of us are using 2700 and 3000 cfm fans without shrouds with no overheating problems.

I have a small block 354 with 10.7 cr. I run a 195 t-stat and my fan comes on at 205. When I'm sitting at a long red light it will climb to 210 and hold. Fan will kick on and bring it down.

Coach has a 428/461 c.i. KC motor, 3000 cfm fan set to come on at 185. Never gets to 205.
Lainhart has a 487 KC motor with a fan shroud. No overheating problem, it will sit and idle for 35 minutes, no problem.
Both of these KC motors are 9 to 9.5 compression motor with over 600 hp.

The more hp you make, the more heat. Higher compression, more heat.

We have changed our March overdrive pulleys to standard size pulleys. That got rid of the idle overheating and alternater not charging problems.

And my favorite, to much anti-freeze! Never more than 50% but we run 25 to 30% because when it's below 40 degrees our Cobras are inside the garage, nice and warm.
Dwight

[jhv48]

Shroud it first, then, if still overheats, look at the cfm of the fans next.

[jojoegen]

Thanks guys.The cfm is 3000 chrome zirgo "s" blades 16",50/50 mixture.This is a show car.all chrome engine.Temp will hit 190 ,fan comes on and it will clime to 230 and keep climing.I don,t want it to go any higher so I shut it down and let the fan cool it off.the sides of the radiator are kinda open in other words the rad. is not enclosed top ,sides in the front of the rad.

[BAsque1]

Welcome to the wonderful world of FE nuanses; I have a very similar problem, however, I do not consider it overheating because the highest my car goes is perhaps 220 in idle traffic. Open road stays 180 steady. The problem that this has been causing is vapor lock and gas boil in the carb bowls. I had to adjust the float levels for they were to low and staved for gas. This is still being tested. As the summer goes along I willpost results. I suggest that you add a full bottle of water wetter, it helps a lot to keep the water temp low. The 50-50 mixture of coolant is also wise. You might want to check what kind of thermostat you have, you might have a winter thermostat vs summer.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Lou

[Jerry Clayton]

pretty March under drive pulleys only work in March---by April its too warm out----

Seriously, underdrive pulleys are for high rpm systems to slow down alternator and waterpump speeds OR to save Horsepower on a short run like possibly drag strip

You have listed about every NO NO that is possible ----underdrive pulleys , small 16 non shrouded fan, non shrouded radiator, but does have a Kirkham expansion tank

[jwoodard]

Go to standard size pulleys and shroud both the fan and the radiator. It will make a considerable difference in your idle temperatures.

[BDR879]

Worked through the same issues myself. I'm running a 428FE and now have the Zirgo 3000 CFM fan and a larger radiator with a shroud and running 90-95 deg C on a 100F day.

I also had the engine dyno'd and found out it was set up wrong out of the box. Re-tuning dropped the engine temp by 40 deg F and is now spot on with A/F ratio, etc.

[jhv48]

Thermostat is stuck closed.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

You have listed about every NO NO that is possible ----underdrive pulleys , small 16 non shrouded fan, non shrouded radiator, but does have a Kirkham expansion tank

Agreed. That Zirgo may have been advertised at 3000 cfm but its likely not delivering that. After two Zirgo fans, 50/50 coolant mixtures, timing adjustments, Water Wetter, three boutique thermostats and every other method of voodoo blah blah blah it was the $50 eBay Taurus fan that solved ALL of my 427's cooling problems. The quickest way to confirm its your fan is to buy a little handheld infrared temp gun and compare your radiator inlet temps with your outlet temps. If you aren't getting at least a 35+ degree differential at idle, you aren't getting enough air across the radiator.

Just my 2 cents....

[jojoegen]

trying to find a show type pullies as stock type in size.Also will cet an aluminum fan shroud and have it polished.Will get waterwetter .but the first thing is to pull the them. and see if it makes a big diffrence.If it does than will get a better therm. with a wider opening such as a cut down dodge therm..No,I won't run without a therm. but only to see if this is the culprit since the water flow is very slow.Either a restriction from the therm. or the pullies. Anyone know where I can pick up polished sock size pullies?Sounds like a plan?Start off most obvious fist then kill them off one at a time right?

[Full Throttle Al]

Remove thermastat. Replace coolant with 100% Evans NPG+.

[jwoodard]

Pretty sure Kirkham has them.

[/quote] Anyone know where I can pick up polished sock size pullies?Sounds like a plan?Start off most obvious fist then kill them off one at a time right?[/quote]

[elmariachi]

What are the diameters of the pulleys you have now?

[jojoegen]

about 5.2" top and bottom.They look pretty much the same size.March only makes underdrive sizes.Don't see very much fluid movement.I think the crank need to be larger to increase water pump flow.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by jojoegen

about 5.2" top and bottom.They look pretty much the same size.March only makes underdrive sizes.Don't see very much fluid movement.I think the crank need to be larger to increase water pump flow.

You posted this is a new KC engine, doubtful the pump is failing. If you increase water flow to move the water through the radiator faster, how is it going to have a better chance to cool? It will make it run even hotter. I argue your issue has nothing to do with the pump. For reference, my stock FE pulley and balancer are about 6.5" in diameter.

[bulletbrown]

Ok , here is the problems I found with my Shell Valley 1. the radiator was price premise product and to small to handle a FE. 2. the fan was a toy compared to the 02 Viper fan I now run . 3. The March people know all about there under drive kits and I called them and they admit it will not work on a street car . I had a custom one made to standard size . Good luck