Adjustments on Adjustable Valve-Train for my 390???

[dwisdom]

I have posted this on another forum in hopes of receiving some suggestions soon - as I feeling pretty down after my experieinces... please read on.

I am looking for the proper adjustment on my 390 that now has adjustable rockers and hydrolic cam (valve lash). I have been told several different adjustments and have had no luck - I continue to here lots of tapping. Here is what I have done:

Installed New Edelbrock Performer RPM CAM, Intake, Timing Chain, Carberator and Aluminum Heads. Crane lifters and 9.235 ball and cup pushrods.

I was told to adjust the screw on the rockers to "0" clearance - this didn't work - too much tapping.

Another suggested the same but, give the screw another half turn... adjusting the Intake valve when the exhaust lifter just starts to rise and adjusting the Exhaust valve when the Intake lifter just stops coming down - this produced the same results.

Again, I was told that sometimes the adjusting screw may require a full to 1.5 turn - this seemed wrong, but I tried it. Same result.

I read in a book about FE engines (when using adjustable rockers) to adjust the valves to 0.110- to 0.210- lash on the first piston @ TDC (as was the case with all the other tries - starting at TDC). Movning on, 1 quarter turn to the next piston in the firing order and adjusting the intake and exhaust valves...etc, until all valves are complete.

This last one i have not tried because I was told that it was absolutely wrong (by someone else) - they said i would have lots of tapping for sure.

At this point I am extremely frustrated and have been unable to move forward. Would someone please shed some light on my dilema? I could really use some help.

Lastly - I did change the length of Pushrod I was using as the first set seemed too short... the locking nut was at the tip of the adjusting screw and was practically falling off. The new rods are 9.36 - which seem to fit better.

Thanks

Don

[ERA535]

Is there a chance that the block was converted to hydraulic lifters from solid lifters?

[ERA#569]

Don, dont keep trying different setups & damage what you have, call John Vermeersch at Ford Racing. 1 -313-845-7595. John who owns Total Performance in Michigan is known as the for most expert on FE engines. (I counted 43 FE Side oilers & 13 SOHC in his shop alone)He also has been FORD racings technical answer man since the early 70's. Not only will he descibe any adjustments, but tell you what to check if the noise is still present, block problems etc.. Great guy who loves FE's. He built my Shelby Aluminum 427.

Good Luck ,Scott

[dwisdom]

Thanks for the response guys! I don't know if the block was converted to hydrolic lifters - when I purchased it, I was aware that the cam had been changed. When I put the new EDL cam in, hydrolic lifters were present already (I put new ones in with the new cam though).

I'll call the fella you mentioned and not make anymore changes until I have a comfortable answer.

Thanks again!!!

[GEORGE ANDERSON]

Don... the length you metioned was the full length tip of ball to flat of cup? or was it the effective length? tip of ball to bottom of cup...if it was the full length I'd have to believe one of the issues is the short push rod...the cup is about .187 deep (1/2 of 3/8") which means you have a .150 short push rod and I can believe you adjusting nut was about to fall off the threads.....with the EDE Performaer RPM you should have either standard or possibly -.050 to -.100 push rods...what's the geometry look like on the valve tip?
Why didn't you get Edelbrocks hydraulic lifters with their camshaft and went with Crane? ****No way you possibly ended up with small block lifters???**** what was the part number on the Crane lifter they sold you????I've seen this b/4 and the adjustment would be like you're describing.....
George

[dwisdom]

George,

I'll get back to you on the part numbers, the packing slips are at work on my desk. The measurments for the "new" pushrods I purchased were 9.360 ball tip to bottom of cup. The crane measurement was balltip to end of cup - total length. My mistake on the lifters, they were the ones that came with the EDL cam... edelbrock lifters.

After talking with John Vermeersch Wednesday, he suggested "0" clearance on the adjustment. I tried this tonight and still had the tapping - although it seemed to sound a little looser in the valve train. There had been some backfiring in the carb (not much) prior to tonight - this was not present tonight either.

The geometry seems ok as well - although I'm not sure what I am looking for other than a proper seat on the valve tip.

Also the rocker arms are 1.76:1 ratio if this helps.

Lastly, this is my first FE experience and it has been fun... regardless of the recent frustraion.

Thanks for your input and concern. I'll get back to you on the part numbers.

Don

[wtcobra]

ERA 569- I know several people who would disagree with you about Vermeesch being the foremost authority on FE engines. I also know of several people that had him build engines who were very dissatified with the results. I doubt if he has ever actually built an FE engine with his own hands. I have met and spoken with him several times over the last twenty years and always found him to be a salesman, P.R. type guy with superficial knowledge of the FE engine.

DWISDOM-Hydraulic lifters should have 0 lash. Check your oil level, as too much or too little can effect hydraulic lifters along with any air in the oil system. The second thing to do is check your lifters for leak down and the easier way would be for you to install new lifters to see if that cures the problem after checking the block to see if it had been drilled for solid lifters and the oil feeds to the lifter bores have been sealed. If not, your lifters are are most likely bad, you are getting insufficient oil to the lifters or
your valve train geometry is incorrect in some fashion. Listen to George Gessford he can help you rule out the possibilities so that your problem can be solved, give him a call, I know he is a hands on type guy, and he has some very knowledgeable guys working for him.

wt

[Zderf]

If its FE, its George Anderson. Period

Listen closely and thou shalt learn much. Take from this dufuss... 1st hand.

Zderf.

[chuckbrandt]

I have read that this should be checked and I can't guess at the sound it would make so maybe that's something to look at.

I also thought the question about being a solid lifter block made a lot of sense, what if no oil is getting to the lifters to pump them up.

Good Luck, Chuck

[ERA#569]

dwisdom, I hope you get your problem solved. I am sure you will with George. I have spoke with George a couple of times by email and was always very impressed with he fast, knowlegable reply.

WT- I am sorry you disagree with "MY OPINION " OF MY FRIEND John V. My reply to DWisdom was done ONLY to help as I have been in situations like that myself ! I will not start on BAD MOUTHING ANY PERSON ON THIS FORUM. If you feel Don should not look for advice from a person than BE A MAN and email him personally to tell him YOUR opinion. I feel this forum should only be used for good fun and to help fellow members. I once was burned on a FE engine I bought from a very popular builder and found out from him after many bad phone conversations that he did not build it , it was a jasper engine ! BUT I DID NOT BRING THIS TO THE FORUM, When I was asked of MY contact with this builder I emailed the people privately and told MY OPINION. OPINIONS ARE JUST THAT. If you are going to talk about ALL the people you know who are unhappy With John V. than just supply the names and phone #'s of these people to DON, There is no need to bash any person on CLUB COBRA. And Yes, John has built engines himself, We built mine together. As a mechanic for 13 years I can say he knows his FE Stuff. THATS JUST MY OPINION. If you have any other BAD things to say please call me and leave this forum for good fun. I will not try to push my opinions on any other members, I will just have fun and help ! . Scott

[GEORGE ANDERSON]

ERA#569 Scott....
I'm glad you mentioned your good results with John....Wayne tells it like he sees it...He doesn't post without reason...but he doesn't usually post just to be posting...if he sees something he feels needs correcting...well he gives his opionion....remember he's a lawyer and has to make his point his way.....but he's also built many engines and has much experience and knowledge in the FE field too.....
I'd guess he has a good reason for mentioning how he feels on that subject and the good thing about this forum is the ability to post what you're thinking.....he probably was a bit to harsh in his words and could have said the same thing without being quite so tough....knowing you did have a good experience....
It's tough for me to post sometimes....the politics of making a statement can be long lasting...and get ya in the middle of something just like this....
Wayne is the ultimate trouble investigator and thinks of everything....that's because he's had some troubles too.(SMILE)...we all learn from experience and the more experienced person you can get information from the more likely you will find someone who has been there and experienced that.....
so please DO keep giving your valued opionion and don't be a bit discouraged if another member has another opinion...don't let the feelings get in the way....I'm sure Wayne didn't intend to stop you from posting your opinion.....I for one want to hear every single one.....good bad or indifferent!
My page with our instructions for Rocker adjusting with Hydraulic cams

http://www.gessford.com/images/mechrockerhydcam.htm

Z-Derf...well you're the man!
Regards, George Anderson....
Just another opinion in a sea of hundreds.....

[dwisdom]

Here are the part numbers for the Rocker Arms and Pushrods (although I have gone with different pushrods since purchasing the Cranes)....

Rockers - CRN-34772-16
Pushrods - CRN-34645-16

The second set of pushrods were purchased from On Track Performance, 9.360 to bottom of cup measurement.

George, after reading your URL "how-to" on valve adjustments, it appears that I have done this right... one of the steps says, Turn the engine over until the Intake completely opens and almost closes? Does this mean, the intake starts to close or is almost closed after opening completely then continuing to turn over until it is almost closed? Don't mean to be so technical, this adjustment has just been more of a headache than I anticipated.

Lastly - there was also a note about the Edelbrock Performer RPM 7105... I have this one and do see a possible clearance issue in the bores. I have checked the pushrods for scuffing marks and do not see any present - hmmm.

Thanks for the support.

One more thing for the rest of you - I did assume that some had bad experiences with and others didn't. The opinions are much appreciated though - thanks again.

Don

[wtcobra]

ERA-569 I am sorry I obviously hurt your feelings regarding your friend. In the original post you didn't indicate he was your close friend. You gave advice which you have every right to do. I gave advice which I have a right to do. I also think we were both trying to help Don.

As far as you correcting me and telling me how and where to post, I have a little suggestion for you- don't even attempt to go there. I was not bashing, just pointing out some facts. Who are you to tell me or anyone else for that matter what to post and how to go about it? I see no need to tell Don the names of people who were dissatisfied with the work, just that they were unhappy.

You are the one who characterized him as the "for most expert on the FE engine", which I don't agree with and it is my privilege to so state here or anywhere.

By the way, I also respect your right to not agree with me, and it certainly doesn't make me angry. I do have one question though and that is why would you feel you had a duty to not inform the public that a well known engine builder sold you a Jasper engine without informing you of such until after the fact?

wt

[GEORGE ANDERSON]

Hi Don....
read it again...it says "Next, turn the engine over until number 1 Intake valve opens completely and almost closes(watch it closely).....that means open completely and then comes back to almost close...and then adjust #1 exhaust valve....

http://www.gessford.com/images/mechrockerhydcam.htm

Hope this helps....
If the new push rod is 9.360 "effective" length that's about .150" longer than a stock adjustable style push rod....not too often do we run into a long push rod with out a good reason....did you check the box the lifters came in yet....Edelbrock part number ____
Regards, george
I only mention this becasue I have received the Edelbrock Performer RPM Camshaft Kits with small block lifters in place of the correct FE lifters...and they are shorter and they would require about a .150 longer push rod....
George

[ERA#569]

wtcobra
Yes ,John is a friend of mine and I feel people should talk for themselves. If you got a bad engine from John than say so, but what makes you think just because you say others have bad experience is enough ! giving names of these people so other members who are interested can call them and ask questions to them and yourself is ALSO giving proof of the FACTS !. This was the only advice i meet to you, I am sorry if I mis- represended myself earlier. As for the first FE that I was very unhappy with, It was from Soutern Automotive. Bill Parham did work with John V. on getting me some correct parts but not the $6000 that I paid for. Bill did make a effort to fix my unhappiness, but fell short. I know there are some people who are VERY happy with the engines from Bill Parham. I have seen other engines of Bills @SAAC events and they seem great to the owners. When I see a request on CLUB COBRA for experience on Southern Auto I try to tell MY story to THAT member.I dont talk about the other people who ALSO emailed me and told me their stories ! I let them talk for themselves. As you say, we both just want to make sure other members DONT go through the same problems we did with a engine. I respect that and yes please keep giving YOUR opinions.That is what makes AMERICA great.You can see my post on my Southern Auto under the name "BLACKSNAKE". I took a new job 9 months ago (email,computer,etc) and was unable to keep my club name. In keeping this to a "FE " info link I will not be replying unless it is a "FE" question. Please email me personally with any none "FE" reply. Scott

[Rick Young]

dwisdom

I haven't read that you have solved your problem. After reading about it, I decided to see if the noise in my 390 was anything like what you described.

I found that I do have out of spec. valve adjustment, by checking the tapet clearance. I have hydrolic lifters and no adjusters.

My book says check the valve lash with the lifters blead down. I have a '64 engine and my book says that I should have .050" to .150" clearance. I found that several were in excess of the upper limit.

I found that it was difficult to compress the lifters, especially working alone. I assume that I have a good bleed-down rate because I had to hold pressure on the lifter for about 30 to 45 seconds to get it fully compressed, and then check the lash. If I let the pressure off the lifter it immediately filled and took the whole effort to get it re-comressed.

It is possible that by setting zero lash that you are still in excess of the required adjustment. The lifter will have more movement than the specified clearance of .050" to .150" and give a false 'zero' setting. My book also lists different ranges of clearance for different years of the 390.

I have some new .060" over length push rods ordered that should bring my lash back into the specified range and hope that will stop my valve noise.

How has your problem worked out?

[dwisdom]

I have not been able to get rid of the noise and am very frustrated at this point - this is the first motor I have ever rebuilt (with the guidance of a close friend who has been doing this type of stuff for many years - his knowledge of the FE is limited though, he is a chevy guy). I have another string asking if anyone knows a local Denver guy that could help - I received a response last night. I am going to try that route, as my experience is limited. The noise does not seem to change much with the different adjustments that I have made - I'm concerned that there may be something else going on.

Thanks for the tip - I'll let you know what I find out.

Don

[Rick Young]

dwisdom,

After my last post, I received my .060" longer push rods and installed them. Note that all pushrods did not need to be replaced.

I checked the .050" to .150" lash, with the lifters compressed, and found that I finally had all valves in speck.

I went on the "Snakes to the Lake" run last weekend, a little over 900 miles for us, and had no problems with tappet noise or noticable performance losses.

The fuel mileage was as good as always also.

[dwisdom]

Measuring the lash with the lifters compressed just seems wrong - wouldn't the valves never close if your measuring .050 - .150 lash from the bleed down postion? Based on what some individuals say - quarter turn after you have "0" lash, this seems like such an extreme difference in measurements... Am i missing something?

Don

[CobraEd]

Don, I am not an FE guru, but I know the basics and I am not clear on some things here.
__________________________________________________ __

Are these hydraulic lifters? For sure???

Are you getting oil flowing up thru the lifters and out the tops of the pushrods?

Did you pre-lube the lifters (assuming they are hydraulic)?

Are all the valves taping or just one or two?

Are these old used lifters with a new cam (a big no no)?

Are these FE lifters or "other" lifters with the same bore diameter? Are you sure??


Based upon how you answer the above questions would help me to make some suggestions.

Ed