Lead Additive/Octane Booster

[undy]

Originally Posted by RET_COP

Klotz octane booster has a stabilizer and a lead substitute in it. The stuff worked for my engine but I like the race gas mix.
It's not junk, you have to buy the good brands like Lucas etc. and not really cheap either.

Not really true... Lucas and the rest of them are also snake oil...

How many octane levels does Lucas octane booster give me if i use 93 octane? - Yahoo! Answers

Do Octane boosters work???? - Mustang Evolution

Lucas oil octane booster - NASIOC

[rpatton3]

Aren't you really trying to protect your priceless iron SOHC heads? Use lead. I will leave the octane argument to the experts.

[BAsque1]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Lou-you missed the entire point. You don't need av, racing or any gas beyond about 91 octane. And you need no lead or ANY other kind of additives.
None of it will add power or increase longevity. Don't waste your money - so you can buy those fancy wheels.
Your set-up will run on chicken soup.

ERA-Chas:
I did not really wanted more power, I think I have plenty, I was just concerned about the effect on the valves by not having the lead.
By the way I do want to change my wheels, how did you guess?
I will ask my Jewish daughter in law to make some kosher chicken soup as additive to my Cobra
Cheers
Lou

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by BAsque1

ERA-Chas:
I did not really wanted more power, I think I have plenty, I was just concerned about the effect on the valves by not having the lead.
By the way I do want to change my wheels, how did you guess?
I will ask my Jewish daughter in law to make some kosher chicken soup as additive to my Cobra
Cheers
Lou

Lou,
The absence of lead as stated earlier will not hurt for a long, long time of usage. I just don't want you to handle it in any form. Even great chicken soup won't cure those effects.
Listen, especially if you're considering parts upgrades, you need to get the basics better.
Like your idle advance should be between 12 and 18 degrees and 36 or so total-not 8 BTDC.
You probably have a very mild cam and not much displacement so you'd need to coordinate several changes if you're after more power. Ask questions if bigger power is what you seek.
If your car drives fine and gets you around, just leave as is. You can easily get more pep by getting the timing right-not by additives, mothballs, meatballs or av/race gas.

[DanEC]

If aviation gas or a nearby source of racing fuel just aren't good options for you, or if you just feel more comfortable running some lead in your fuel, this is the only product worth spending your money on - if you can still find it - Kemco Octane 130.

Octane Supreme 130, 6-32oz.

This is real lead (100% real Tetraethyl) , real octane booster, illegal for street use, costly as hell. You can Google it and read about it. Last I heard it wasn't available anymore but this ad says it has been reintroduced. I have a case of it that will probably last me for awhile.

I have a bone-stock Plymouth GTX whose 440 motor just doesn't like 93 octane premium with 36 deg timing. A quarter bottle of this stuff in the tank at fill ups and it does just fine. Pour a whole bottle in and the aroma of the exhaust will bring back memories of the 60s although the EPA will hate you.

Personally I don't think the lead is needed for engine durability - but if you need a little more Octane rating this will do it.

[BAsque1]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Lou,
The absence of lead as stated earlier will not hurt for a long, long time of usage. I just don't want you to handle it in any form. Even great chicken soup won't cure those effects.
Listen, especially if you're considering parts upgrades, you need to get the basics better.
Like your idle advance should be between 12 and 18 degrees and 36 or so total-not 8 BTDC.
You probably have a very mild cam and not much displacement so you'd need to coordinate several changes if you're after more power. Ask questions if bigger power is what you seek.
If your car drives fine and gets you around, just leave as is. You can easily get more pep by getting the timing right-not by additives, mothballs, meatballs or av/race gas.

Chas:
I understand the risk of handling the lead, and I agree.

The car has a 427 SO which was dynoed at 550 hp at the rear wheels 3 years ago, so displacement and power is not the issue, especially since I do not race this car.

I did tried the timing other than 8* BTDC and the engine diesels after I turn it off, so the best timing to avoid this was 8* 750 RPM in idle.

I have not touched the cam nor I have any info that the previous owner did,however, it seem that it is a mild cam.
Thank you so much for your detailed comments man. Your last statement wraps it well, I will leave it as is, I am happy with that.
Cheers
Lou

[RET_COP]

Undy--Not really true... Lucas and the rest of them are also snake oil...

[sx] Octane Boosters <long_but worth the read>

I can find alot more. Its not snake oil, just maybe not worth it.
I mix my own fuel and use Toluene and IT WORKS! but I'll leave that for another discussion

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by BAsque1

Chas:


The car has a 427 SO which was dynoed at 550 hp at the rear wheels 3 years ago, so displacement and power is not the issue, especially since I do not race this car.

I did tried the timing other than 8* BTDC and the engine diesels after I turn it off, so the best timing to avoid this was 8* 750 RPM in idle.

Lou,
I respectfully disagree with your stated power numbers. In order for you to make 550 at the wheels, it needs to make 643 at the crank. No 427-sized FE in my experience will make 1.5HP / CI on pump gas with iron heads and 8 degrees at idle, and still idle at 750. If you were told these numbers by previous owner I understand the misunderstanding. If you witnessed the numbers and have dyno data yourself, please post.
My 427 makes 550 at the crank and 462 at the wheels. And runs on 93 octane with 22 initial and 38 total.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by BAsque1

Chas:
I understand the risk of handling the lead, and I agree.

The car has a 427 SO which was dynoed at 550 hp at the rear wheels 3 years ago, so displacement and power is not the issue, especially since I do not race this car.

I did tried the timing other than 8* BTDC and the engine diesels after I turn it off, so the best timing to avoid this was 8* 750 RPM in idle.

I have not touched the cam nor I have any info that the previous owner did,however, it seem that it is a mild cam.
Thank you so much for your detailed comments man. Your last statement wraps it well, I will leave it as is, I am happy with that.
Cheers
Lou

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Lou,
I respectfully disagree with your stated power numbers. In order for you to make 550 at the wheels, it needs to make 643 at the crank. No 427-sized FE in my experience will make 1.5HP / CI on pump gas with iron heads and 8 degrees at idle, and still idle at 750. If you were told these numbers by previous owner I understand the misunderstanding. If you witnessed the numbers and have dyno data yourself, please post.
My 427 makes 550 at the crank and 462 at the wheels. And runs on 93 octane with 22 initial and 38 total.

I have to agree here.



Lou,
If your engine runs-on at anything above 8 degrees, then it must be a fairly mild motor, compression /cam etc.
As stated above, I find it hard to believe you can make that hp/ci and idle at 750 with 8 degrees.
Nobody I know runs less than 16 at idle on anything that is warm, and most run in the 18-22 bracket, some with 10 degree start retards.
For a street/race car you would be doing well to get over 1.5hp/ci and still be "streetable".

[BAsque1]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Lou,
I respectfully disagree with your stated power numbers. In order for you to make 550 at the wheels, it needs to make 643 at the crank. No 427-sized FE in my experience will make 1.5HP / CI on pump gas with iron heads and 8 degrees at idle, and still idle at 750. If you were told these numbers by previous owner I understand the misunderstanding. If you witnessed the numbers and have dyno data yourself, please post.
My 427 makes 550 at the crank and 462 at the wheels. And runs on 93 octane with 22 initial and 38 total.

Chas:
Those were the numbers passed on to me by the previous owner, I will try to get in touch with him, perhaps he send me incorrect # I will find out if I can reach him in CA. There is nothing I can do about the 8* BTC now those are the results I have seen when tune up the car. I did say that I do have a mild cam, nor have I done any major changes to the engine. I am happy with the power I have.
Lou

[ERA Chas]

I suspected as much. Don't contact him-you didn't get the truth when you gave him money; why should he square with you now?
And yes you can change timing and wake that thing up. Being 'happy with the power you have' is not a reason to have an inefficient engine Lou.
Bump the initial to 12 as a start with 36 total and test. If it likes it, go up 2 degrees at a time until it's hard to crank. If it runs-on, kill it with clutch pedal.
If you're unable to do this work, take it to a local dyno-tuner and have them put the correct curve in the distributor-all in by 2600 or so.
It will respond MUCH better but not make so much power to scare you-and you'll get better mpg as a bonus.

[BAsque1]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

I suspected as much. Don't contact him-you didn't get the truth when you gave him money; why should he square with you now?
And yes you can change timing and wake that thing up. Being 'happy with the power you have' is not a reason to have an inefficient engine Lou.
Bump the initial to 12 as a start with 36 total and test. If it likes it, go up 2 degrees at a time until it's hard to crank. If it runs-on, kill it with clutch pedal.
If you're unable to do this work, take it to a local dyno-tuner and have them put the correct curve in the distributor-all in by 2600 or so.
It will respond MUCH better but not make so much power to scare you-and you'll get better mpg as a bonus.

Chas:
Thank you for your advise, its funny that you addressed the mpg, because since I got the car the mpg has been a stable 11-12, recently it has gone down to 8-9 and I do see the spark plugs a bit black when in fact that is telling me that I am running too rich.

We check the levels in the carb bowls and that is fine. I will be installing tomorrow an electric gas pump, so I will take the time to recheck the timing following your idea.

Let me ask you this; why do the specs for this engine states the 8* BTDC @ 750 rpm idle? I have literature that says that. That said I have also read that for a single 4 V carb it is 4* and for dual quads is 8*, which is it. At times I feel a bit frustrated that you try all the options you read about and still there is something different. I also read as you said that it goes all the way up to 36*. BTW I do not have vaccumm advance on my dist.
Is there any source (from Ford or reliable) that specifically states the settings? I must assume that I have the factory cam.
Tks
Lou

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by BAsque1

Chas:

Let me ask you this; why do the specs for this engine states the 8* BTDC @ 750 rpm idle? I have literature that says that. That said I have also read that for a single 4 V carb it is 4* and for dual quads is 8*, which is it.

That depends of the source or accuracy of the 'literature' you have. Is it an original shop manual for FE engines?
Regardless, the 4 decades since the engines' inception have brought hundreds of improvements (even for mild street cars) through racing and the work of specialist engine builders, like those present here.
Even if your engine is as it left Ford decades ago, tuning improvements as I outlined (without major part changes) will yield a better-running engine.
It is accepted knowledge today that these engines (with factory configured combustion chambers) operate best at 12 to 22 initial and a total of 36 to 38, in by 2600. Regardless of what was printed decades ago.
And changes to the design of cams, cylinder heads and induction can now easily add 100+ HP.
Try a dyno tuner to get the induction right (not so rich) and reset your timing and you'll see a big improvement in response and efficiency.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by BAsque1

Let me ask you this; why do the specs for this engine states the 8* BTDC @ 750 rpm idle? I have literature that says that. That said I have also read that for a single 4 V carb it is 4* and for dual quads is 8*, which is it.

Lou, here is a scan from my original 1964 Ford Shop Manual. This should be viewed as a curiosity only -- I wouldn't use it to set my tune up specs (and I don't, and I have a "kinda/almost/maybe" close to original engine build). In fact, I run the original 427-8V low riser cam in my engine (which was different than the 427-4v cam). Once the medium riser was available, the low riser 8v cam was only available as a service item. Ford's thinking was that the medium riser made up for the low riser's need for additional cam duration. If you asked the dealer to put it in for you though on your medium riser, he would, of course, do it... for a fee. Take these specs with a grain of salt. The 427-8v did not have 18" of vacuum at idle. Also, read the footnotes as to timing. Always read the footnotes... that's where you hide the truth, in plain sight. FWIW, I run 10 degrees at idle, 25 mechanical, all in by about 2800RPM. Total of 35 degrees, with aluminum heads, stroked and bored, solid flat tappet. Very, very similar performance to the original 427-4v medium riser with the old 8v cam put in as an option. They've come along way with cams since then, but that's the way I wanted it and, as Chas. will tell you, I mostly use the car to drive to fine restaurants anyway....

[BAsque1]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Lou, here is a scan from my original 1964 Ford Shop Manual. This should be viewed as a curiosity only -- I wouldn't use it to set my tune up specs (and I don't, and I have a "kinda/almost/maybe" close to original engine build). In fact, I run the original 427-8V low riser cam in my engine (which was different than the 427-4v cam). Once the medium riser was available, the low riser 8v cam was only available as a service item. Ford's thinking was that the medium riser made up for the low riser's need for additional cam duration. If you asked the dealer to put it in for you though on your medium riser, he would, of course, do it... for a fee. Take these specs with a grain of salt. The 427-8v did not have 18" of vacuum at idle. Also, read the footnotes as to timing. Always read the footnotes... that's where you hide the truth, in plain sight. FWIW, I run 10 degrees at idle, 25 mechanical, all in by about 2800RPM. Total of 35 degrees, with aluminum heads, stroked and bored, solid flat tappet. Very, very similar performance to the original 427-4v medium riser with the old 8v cam put in as an option. They've come along way with cams since then, but that's the way I wanted it and, as Chas. will tell you, I mostly use the car to drive to fine restaurants anyway....

Tks Patrick
Lou

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

LFWIW, I run 10 degrees at idle, 25 mechanical, all in by about 2800RPM. Total of 35 degrees, with aluminum heads, stroked and bored, solid flat tappet.

Pat,
Like Lou, you're leaving a lot of low-speed response and a little torque on the table.Especially you with increased displacement.
I don't think that advancing such mild cams makes any difference. They don't have any top-end to shift downward.
Ever try going up on initial in increments? You'd feel a difference. The motor feels sharper, less sleepy. More fun to drive.
Make it your next 'fiddle' project-like the wheels. You can always go back to your numbers if it scares you...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Pat,
Like Lou, you're leaving a lot of low-speed response and a little torque on the table.Especially you with increased displacement.
I don't think that advancing such mild cams makes any difference. They don't have any top-end to shift downward.
Ever try going up on initial in increments? You'd feel a difference. The motor feels sharper, less sleepy. More fun to drive.
Make it your next 'fiddle' project-like the wheels. You can always go back to your numbers if it scares you...

I have tried going up and down a bit with total timing, and 35 seems like the sweet spot. That's what I set it to at 3000 RPM. With the 25 degree cam in the MSD that just sets me at 10 at idle; I don't actually set the timing at idle. I use the tried and true silver and blue springs, which brings it all in reasonably early. I could switch in the 20 cam, reset it at 3000 RPM to 35, which would translate down to 15 at idle. That's a fiddle project. But if I'm "getting on it," you know, in between fine restaurants, I'm invariably over 3000 RPM anyway, so all the timing is there.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

That's a fiddle project. But if I'm "getting on it," you know, in between fine restaurants, I'm invariably over 3000 RPM anyway, so all the timing is there.

So fiddle with it-that's what I'm trying to get Lou to do. It's half the fun of owning a Cobra.
Better you'd be 'getting on it' exiting turn 7 for the front straight at Lime Rock. You guys are only getting about 40% of the car's envelope.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

...the front straight at Lime Rock.

How 'bout a little lime over a rock lobster instead?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

How 'bout a little lime over a rock lobster instead?

You NEVER fail to disappoint............................