Help please

[Sn4k33Y3z]

I'm new to the world of FE motors and have already found myself in a pickle. We found some bearing shavings in the oil filter when we cut it open to examine. Worst part is, I just bought the car have only driven it maybe 50 miles. Needless to say, I'm down and out.

I'm anticipating the worst, as I'm sure this is going to require a rebuild. However, my budget is tight so I'm planing on reusing as much as possible, given the test results of such components are in spec. The motor was "supposedly" built by Dwight Powell- However, no build sheet available.

My car is strictly a weekend warrior. I have no intention of really racing it. However, I don't want to be held back in fear, if I decide to punch the gas a little fearing something major is going to break.

Can you recommend a Cam & Lifter assuming it's a stock bore?

Also, there appears to be a lack of oil in the upper valve assembly. What could be the cause for oil not to flow through properly? I've heard crankshaft failure will cause this. Given the metal copper color partials in the oil filter, I feel certain something is going on with the crank.

Also, if any of you are local to the metro Atlanta area, and could point me in a direction of a machine shop, that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jake

[Sn4k33Y3z]

33 views and no responses... Feedback anyone?

[Tommy]

Just for clarification - Are you asking for advice so you can do the work yourself, or are you looking for a knowledgeable engine builder to evaluate and repair your engine if needed? .... One engine builder frequently recommended here is Southern Automotive in McDonough, GA. i have no personal experience, but others here or on the AC (Atlanta Cobra) club page will likely chime in.

[Dwight]

pull the oil pan and then remove a couple of rod caps. If bearings look bad then remove motor for a rebuild.

Like Tommy said are you going to do it yourself or get someone?

I think you need someone with knowledge on FEs and especially 427.

Do not use just any engine builder.

We have a guy in Florence area that can build a 427. ( north west Alabama)

Dwight

[Dwight]

I understand there are only nine Shamrocks in the USA.
We have one in Florence.

How many miles did the seller tell you that was on the engine?

You can have the oil analyzed. That will tell you if you have bearing material in the oil.

Go slow and check everything out before you spend big bucks.

You may just need the bearings replaced. Don't forget the cam bearings.


Dwight

[Tom Cimino]

If you are not getting oil to the top end of the motor it could be that your camshaft doesn't have the grooves on journals 2 and 4. these grooves are required on side oiler engines because they route oil to the rocker shafts. The 390 and 428 blocks do not need these grooves because they have annular grooves cut in the bores where the cam bearings are pressed (quoted from "How to build max performance FE engines" by Barry Rabotnick, a need to read book.)

[redmt]

Metal in the filter means metal circulating through the entire oiling system. No way around it to fix it correctly. Pull it out, tear it down and clean out all the passages and galleys. If it ran OK then pistons could be reusable. All bearings should be replaced and you REALLY need to find the cause of the problem. Bearings don't shed material for no reason. Do it right or you'll be asking the same questions again soon.

[Mr Jody]

Originally Posted by Sn4k33Y3z

....We found some bearing shavings in the oil filter when we cut it open to examine.

....Given the metal copper color partials in the oil filter

....Also, if any of you are local to the metro Atlanta area, and could point me in a direction of a machine shop, that would be greatly appreciated.

Maybe a long shot, but considering the color of the particles, possibly a bronze gear on the distributor shaft? I have seen it stated on another website where these are considered "sacrificial". Easier to pull the distributor than the crankshaft or cam for investigative purposes.

As stated above, it would be well worth the time and money to have the particles analyzed to specifically identify what has failed. Much less expensive than going in and making a wholesale replacement of all bearings without knowing exactly what failed, and why.

For an FE engine builder local to Atlanta, I will repeat Tommy's suggestion of Southern Automotive. They have been building FEs for a long time. While I haven't had any direct dealings with them, I know of someone who does on a regular basis, and has nothing but good things to say about them.
Southern Automotive
70 Sims Street
McDonough, GA 30253
(770) 898-9360

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by Mr Jody

Maybe a long shot, but considering the color of the particles, possibly a bronze gear on the distributor shaft? I have seen it stated on another website where these are considered "sacrificial". Easier to pull the distributor than the crankshaft or cam for investigative purposes.

As stated above, it would be well worth the time and money to have the particles analyzed to specifically identify what has failed. Much less expensive than going in and making a wholesale replacement of all bearings without knowing exactly what failed, and why.

For an FE engine builder local to Atlanta, I will repeat Tommy's suggestion of Southern Automotive. They have been building FEs for a long time. While I haven't had any direct dealings with them, I know of someone who does on a regular basis, and has nothing but good things to say about them.
Southern Automotive
70 Sims Street
McDonough, GA 30253
(770) 898-9360

+1 on checking the dist gear. Very easy to pull.

[Sn4k33Y3z]

Great feedback everyone! I really appreciate it. The car is actually sitting at a car builders shop. We are planing on trying to reuse as much as possible given everything we check is in spec. Then if something is found on the cam or crank, we plan on involving a machine shop for repair.

Could over revving cause a crankshaft failure? I never got the engine past 5000 RPMs(for whatever that's worth).

I will have the shop inspect the distributor shaft. Can the distributor shaft cause a valve train noise?

The motor has 1,758 miles on it. However, from 2006 to present time, only 1,000 miles were put on the car. I'm not certain the original owner new to add the proper zinc additive to the oil system. We also have a dual Edlebrock/Weber carburetor system that I know isn't in proper alignment. On a cold start, the car rev's at 2,800-3,000 rpm until you blip the throttle. I also suspect this could be a culprit- Thoughts?

Again, THANK YOU for the feedback!

[DanEC]

I didn't hear you describe anything that sounds like a crankshaft failure. Examining the distributor gear and pulling the pan to examine some rod and main bearings are the first things to do. But, you need to find someone who knows what they are looking at for the examination. Obviously if the base material is showing through on the bearing surfaces - that's pretty easy to ID. But, more subtle wear/damage may take a good mechanic to diagnose.

I don't think you have damaged anything by reving it to 5,000 rpm, unless it already had some fatal flaw in the build.

Valve train noise in these motors is not exactly rare. Is it a hydraulic lifter or mechanical lifter motor? If mechanical lifters, that plus header tube ticking will contribute to a somewhat noisy motor. Even with hydraulic lifters some of these motors (mine included) are never exactly quiet. If it sounds like a sewing machine with an attitude, it may be just fine.

2800 to 3000 rpm for fast idle on a cold start is definitely too high. Usually something down around 1500 - 1600 rpm is more normal. On a cold engine it probably isn't doing your motor a lot of good - don't know if it could be part of the problem.

[Tommy]

Snakeeyes (spelled the hard way),
The fact that you are asking us strangers about your engine leads me to believe that either your car builder can't answer your questions, or you're not entirely confident in his abilities. Given that these old engines aren't very common anymore, I think you'd do well to put your trust in someone with a good reputation for working on them. If you do that, you won't need to come here seeking input on what sounds to me like mostly random speculation about your engine. Most of us enjoy trying to troubleshoot other peoples engines and a few of us (not including me) actually know what we're talking about. But I don't think that is the best course for you. Trying to analyze and fix your engine on the cheap may turn out to be the most expensive way to do it.

[Sn4k33Y3z]

Well, I'm kind of in a tight spot. The car was originally in the speed shop for minor things i.e custom trailing arms, rear diff service, hub bearings re-greased, etc.

Then, the one day I took the car out to enjoy (maybe 75 miles driven). As I was bringing the car back to the shop, I could here a moderate (I say moderate as the engine is so loud hard to discern volume of noise) ticking I'll describe it, BUT only while the car was at a rolling idle. Once stopped, I wasn't sure if I could hear anything. I drove it for another few miles on the way to the shop and it started to spudder a bit. Once I stopped the car stalled and wouldn't start back up again ( new mechanical Holley fuel pump was added). I thought to myslef, perhaps it got vapor locked...

Nonetheless, a rollback came and picked me up to bring the car back to the shop. It sat over the weekend. On Monday, the shop started the car right up (I wasn't there) and heard the noise I was describing and killed it. Here we are today.

I wish I could figure out how to post some pictures on this forum to show you guys. I believe I've got mechanical lifters with flat tappets.

[Sn4k33Y3z]

Well, I'm kind of in a tight spot. The car was originally in the speed shop for minor things i.e custom trailing arms, rear diff service, hub bearings re-greased, mechanical fuel pump etc. The race shop specializes in classic rase cars like Jaguar, Frisbee, old BMW Can AM cars. They actually have Danny Sullivan's winning car. The shop owner was one of the founders of "The Mitty" at Road Atlanta.

Then, the one day I took the car out to enjoy (maybe 75 miles driven). As I was bringing the car back to the shop, I could here a moderate (I say moderate as the engine is so loud hard to discern volume of noise) ticking I'll describe it, BUT only while the car was at a rolling idle. Once stopped, I wasn't sure if I could hear anything. I drove it for another few miles on the way to the shop and it started to spudder a bit. Once I stopped the car stalled and wouldn't start back up again ( new mechanical Holley fuel pump was added). I thought to myself, perhaps it got vapor locked...

Nonetheless, a rollback came and picked me up to bring the car back to the shop. It sat over the weekend. On Monday, the shop started the car right up (I wasn't there) and heard the noise I was describing and killed it. Here we are today.

I wish I could figure out how to post some pictures on this forum to show you guys. I believe I've got mechanical lifters with flat tappets.

[Sn4k33Y3z]

Originally Posted by Tommy

Snakeeyes (spelled the hard way),
The fact that you are asking us strangers about your engine leads me to believe that either your car builder can't answer your questions, or you're not entirely confident in his abilities. Given that these old engines aren't very common anymore, I think you'd do well to put your trust in someone with a good reputation for working on them. If you do that, you won't need to come here seeking input on what sounds to me like mostly random speculation about your engine. Most of us enjoy trying to troubleshoot other peoples engines and a few of us (not including me) actually know what we're talking about. But I don't think that is the best course for you. Trying to analyze and fix your engine on the cheap may turn out to be the most expensive way to do it.

Tommy- That is a very reasonable statement. However, I have confidence in their ability, but your absolutely right I'd feel much more comfortable handing over to an FE machine shop. The owner called me today, to advise me of their approach. Allowing them to pull the motor and diagnose as much as possible to limit the expense. Then source a machine shop for any machine shop work or repair. Ideally, I'd love to be able to tear it done and have everything re-honed and such, but that isn't in my future at the moment. Trust me, I wish it was the case.