Dove ????

[fordracer]

O.K. , from what I'm reading here DOVE pretty much sucks. Can somebody tell me why ? They have been in business for an awfully long time. I'm looking at my options on cylinder heads. My goal is 450 - 475 hp with either a stroked 390 or a 428. Thanks

[bmalone]

Poor quality control, endless waiting for parts Try some of the outfits that offer FE packages such as Southern Automotive. Here

[Doc]

I have a set of Dove TP heads. They have been nothing but trouble such as water leaks, helicoils pull out when try to torque the intake and rocker shafts on, valve seats move after 15 min of running' and heads bend and distort after beeing torqued on. I phone Dove about this and they asked to see the heads and indicated they may replace them. I will keep you posted on if they make this problem good.

[chopper]

Similar problems with the smaller parts, too. The Dove brand rocker arms for the FE series do not have bushings or bearings installed; they're just bare aluminum rotating on the steel shaft. I had a set that lasted less than 800 miles. One rocker hole had worn over 1/8 inch, two others were nearly as bad and all were badly out of tolerance. When I tried to talk to Dove about the problem, they blew me off and stopped returning calls. I replaced the set with Harlan Sharpe units and have had no further problems. They just don't seem to care. Yeah, they've been around for a while, but they seem to be coasting on past deeds and have no concern for current problems. I second bmalone's advice: call Bill at Southern Automotive and he can help you build any engine you want (as long as it's a Ford).

[RICK LAKE]

Fordracer. HI. I waited 6 months for a single plane manifold for MR heads. I drove out there to pick it up when Run&Gun was racing about an hour away. Real slick Salesman gave me the factory tour,this was after the floods in 95 and the company was getting up and running. My manifold had not been casted yet, aproblem with the new furnace, they did not know how to get a good pour into the molds. They had 4,5headed CNC machines costing 100k each and 5.00$ an hour worker. I personaly saw a worker not put an intake into the machine right and break the bit and manifold. I shook my head and walked away. 5 weeks later my manifold showed up with a sorry note. 2 pushrod holes had not been ground out, casting was pitted on the carb mount area. I used 2 part epoxy and sanded flat. I retapped all the sensor holes and general cleaning up of the intake. I will never buy another part from them again. The manifold was 480.00$ I got a 5% discount because of the long delay. EBrock and Shelby have filled in the parts problem for FE motors great. Ford Power Parts in CALI. has all the small parts you will ever need to assembly one. If I pay top dollar for a part I want a top qualitity part, I a sure everybody wants the same for their hard earned money. This is my problem with Dove. I will give anybody a second change but this company. Feel free to answer this any time Jim D. You used to have a OK company, I know the storys about the defective heads that got sold. I know of two people that are working on there 3 and 4 set of heads from leaking problems. You keep fixing for free. Rick Lake

[A Snake]

I guess for every negative there's a positive.

I'm one who had good luck with Dove. My builder brought in a pair of Dove MR heads for my 427 S/O in 1994. They were leak tested, found sound and porting and oil relief work commenced. Shortly they were installed on the block with studs and mated up to my original Shelby logo sidewinder manifold.

My builder found miscellaneous areas that needed a touch up, but explained that it was normal stuff for new heads.

With the heads, a complete set of Dove roller rockers, super shafts and end stands was also installed. Oiling restriction to the heads was taken care of along with some polishing and shaping of the oil return holes.

New stainless TP sized valves were installed and away we went. The engine was broken in on the dyno and no leaks or other problems appeared. The pulls commenced and the best was 486hp @ 6,100rpm

I drove the hell out of that engine and it never whimpered. The valves stayed set, oil pressure was excellent and frankly, problems with Dove's heads never even entered my head.....because they never happened.

I've heard the horror stories too. What Jim Dove needs is a decent foundery to do his casting for him. That's where the problems come from. I'd say give the guy a break. Maybe he's found one by now.

Al

[RICK LAKE]

ASnake Hello. I give anybody a chance,but when I a bulls!hted more than twice, BITE ME. Al I have heard many different storys about Dove You are lucky with your heads. When I spend 480.00 for an intake manifold I donot expect to have to make repairs. Jim had the new foundry in 95 if not earlier. I got a Shelby motor and heads and they needed no tapping,filing,welding,filling,or clean up of castings. EBrock is the same way on completed heads. My heads were CNC port matched at Shelby and the gaskets matched perfectly. You had your heads leak tested. WHY??? when you bought brand new heads. You can thank your engine builder for taking the time to test and repair your heads, NOT THE MANUFACTOR. This is way in this great country some companys make it and same go bad, poor product, lack of product, promise of deliviery on time, poor design, quality lacking. Jim Dove is a machinist not a bussiness man. It's a Damn shame. Ebrock and Shelby started building or getting parts built for a small group of people, FE and Cobra people. We are small compared to Nascar,NHRA,F1,Indy cars, Ihra, and others. This is only MY FEELINGS about this company. Rick Lake

[FE Specialties]

Hi Fordracer,
I'm Tom Lucas with FE Specialties. There are a lot of problems with some of the Dove products. If you want 475 HP out of a 428, thats no problem!! I have a customer online her, decooney, that has one of my 428s in his ERA. Talk to him and get the skinny on his motor. His is putting out 540 HP. I used Edelbrock heads that have some moderate porting, Ross pistons, Investment cast roller rockers, Performer RPM intake and Holley HP 830. I build not only a motor, but an engineered engine specifically to the car and owner.
Give me a messsage or call and we can talk further!!
Thanks, Tom Lucas, FE Specialties 916-339-0427.

[decooney]

Fordracer,

I just finished my ERA, and took it out yesterday with a group of Cobras and Vipers... First hand, I can tell you that Tom at FE Specialties builds what you want, and it will turn out as requested, within budget. I did not cut corners, but I did not have to spend a ton of money on a 427 buildup either. I am a systems engineer and developer professionally, so I can really appreciate good engineering and return on investment.

I have to tell you, after driving this car with the 428CJ that he engineered for me per my requirements, well let me say this, for the first time in my life I don't believe I need anything more. I've had big-block Cobras and fast cars in my past to compare to. I'm just breaking it in now, and its pretty exciting so far... I have not even taken it above 3800 rpms yet, and I had no idea that an FE could have so much torque - effortlessly!

If you are not sure what to do, give Tom a call, he has helped me and couple of friends already on their FEs. Good Luck.

[RICK LAKE]

FE Specialties How much did you retard the cam and how big was it. Rick Lake Sounds like you have a very happy customer

[Phantasea427]

I have the DOVE CCJ heads and CJ intake manifold. Have never ahd any problems with either. Also run DOVE rockers, shafts, spacers and endstands with Head studs. Set 'em and forget 'em.
I have heard many complaints but so far I have none. I agree that quality control needs a lot of improvement along with general house keeping and cleanliness of the facilities.

Good Luck

Damon

[RICK LAKE]

Phantasea427 Hi Damon You are a luck guy. I know of more people with problems than good stories. Time will tell on your motor. Did you build it or have a machinist do it?? Have a nice day Rick Lake

[Phantasea427]

Hi Rick,

I guess one can say that I have been lucky. I purchased the heads bare and had my machinist smooth out the rough castings, pocket port and install the valves, spring cups, springs etc..... and turn down Manley Sever duty valves to 2.15 intake and 1.72 exhaust. I lightly match ported the intake but will probably remove it this winter and have it flow matched to my heads. My machinist is one of the best in the country IMO and I assemble my engines. It's been together for several years and nothing has happened except for a blown head gasket when I tried to squeeze a little N²O through the engine. My front wheels didn't come down until after the 60' lights!! then the head gasket let go. That was a few years ago. I mostly bracket race.

I've been researching information about Cobra Kit cars. I'm at a crossroads. Don't know if I should build a 557ci 385 series engine and continue drag racing or get a Cobra Kit car and install either my 427 for one of my 428's. I'll probably be asking many questions in the future as well as search for answers on this forum. My main concer right now is auto insurance, been reading posts about insruance lately.

I posted a picture of my Mustang in the photo gallery, still learing how this forum works.

Later

Damon

[PatBurke]

Ford Racer,
I think it's all relative to what the intended use will be. There is no doubt that the Dove cylinder heads have been inconsistent when it comes to casting integrity and machining quality but they do make some unique parts that give you the "opportunity" to make killer HP in a race application. In my dealings with Dove they are a company with lot's of good ideas but sometimes poor execution. We are making 850+ HP with our Dove headed, naturally aspirated race engine in our '66 Fairlane drag car with only 434 cubes. That works out to around 1.96+ HP per cube. You need a pretty effecient cylinder head to do that. BUT it took a LOTS of work, LOTS of trial and error, and a few buck$ to solve all the problems we found along the way. I will say that I've never had a set of Dove heads that we could'nt work with, it's just a matter of how much effort you want to put into working on them.

With that said, for the typical Cobra engine or street type FE, I think that you can't go wrong with the Edelbrock cylinder heads. They produce a very good casting with plenty of material, are pretty inexpensive, and are capable of plenty of HP. We buy the Edelbrock 6008 bare 427 castings and set them up according to the application for most of our customers. We are doing a pretty intense ALL ALUMINUM engine for a guy right now with these heads, Shelby block, 4.25" billet crank, Oliver billet rods, hydraulic roller cam, TWM injection set up, Electromotive ECU and distributorless ignition, etc. It's going in front of a T-56 in a Kirkham aluminum bodied car.

Your goal of 475+ HP from a 428 with Edelbrock heads is very do-able. It'll should actually make more power than that. A while back we built a pretty basic +.020" 427 with stock cast iron small port MR heads, 10.5 to 1 compression, 3.78" steel crank, Lemans rods, Dove rockers, roller cam, Blue Thunder dual plane single 4 intake, BG 750 carb, etc. and that dynoed at 525 HP @ 6400 and 510 ft lb @ 6100. We updated that same engine later to use in a drag car with 13.5 to 1 compression, ported Edelbrocks, bigger roller cam, Eagle rods, and a tunnelwedge w/ two 750's and it made 670HP. Not that this is a direct back to back comparison but it shows that the Edelbrocks can support plenty of power.

Give us a call if you have any questions or there is anything we can do to help.

Thanks,
Pat Burke
Ocean State Performance
(401) 737-1495

[Cobrabill]

Dove is a 4-letter word.

Back when the casting issues came to light,the excuse given was that there were a couple of pallets of "defects" sitting in the shop.And one night someone broke in and stole them.And these are the heads that are out&about leaking.

[A Snake]

Rick,

I truly sympathize with the difficulties you had. It's interesting that you are just like I am in how you deal with it.

I had a so callled "expert" start the work on building my Contemporary. He was the dealer in this area and talked a hell of a good line. "exact to original" was one of his favorite phrases.

Turns out that the guy had done his own car and figured he could do it for other people. Only thing was he figured his customer should pay for his learning curve at going shop rates.

This joker got $20K of my money and most of what he did I had to have repaired or replaced. This guy also went on parts runs for more than one customer at a time and billed each of them full price for labor. I finally got a belly full of the BS and excuses and pulled the car out. Went back for my refund of a cash advance I'd given him and found that he'd managed to find enough to bill nearly all of it out. I felt like putting his lights out right then and there, but settled for calling him an effing amature and left.

You're right, shame on me for letting him get me that way. That's what you sometimes get for giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Since then I've given him enough bad press that he's basically out of business. He didn't realize how many car people I know around here. Every time someone would ask about the car and where they could get one, I let him have it with both barrels.

To give you an idea of this guy's character, when he got a divorce, his wife was entitled to half of the Cobra. What's this guy do? Gets on television giving his wife $25K in quarters! I know some of you will think that's really funny, but think about it.....would you do that? I wouldn't. I'd be embarrassed enough kowing I couldn't make it work, let alone tell the world and show them I'm a jerk too!

This was his attitude toward working on people's cars too.....including mine.

So......I do understand Rick.

Oh BTW for all Portland area prospective Cobra builders.....Stay away from "The Guy" in Aurora, OR

Al

[RICK LAKE]

A Snake HI Al I'm SORRY that you had your problems with building your cobra. You work hard spend time and money to do the best you can for your car to be the best replica on your town and some a**hole screws you and cases more time and money out of your pocket to repair the damage. If you take him to court you would win and lose. I have done this two times and not gotten 1 dollar back. won twice. The best way to get these people is the way you did it. Bring them into the LIGHT and TURN UP THE HEAT, smart people will listen and maybe learn. Stupid people their is no hope for and donot want to hear their crap about this or that. If Jim Dove would get his head out of his A** maybe he could turn that company around, Fire the foreman, Paid better wages, hire people that know the job, NOT YOUR DUMB FRIENDS, Fix the castings and maybe in time you can be NUMBER 1 with the best and latest FE parts on the market. It's something to think about Jim. It seams into world people that care about there qualitity of work, pride, loyalty to a company are the ones who get SCREWED and the putz are always saved because of A** kissing. You did a go thing Al. BE PROUD OF IT. Rick Lake ps I hope your car came out the way you wanted.

[A Snake]

Hiya Rick,

Yup! T'weren't bad for a glass car! Even fooled a few folks who owned originals.

Since you started this thread, I've been thinking about Jim Dove. How 'bout some of us buying him out. Remember, he has ALL of the FE head and intake casting molds from Ford and has done some interesting things with some of them.

All that is needed is business management and some real quality control. He's not the first craftsman I've seen try to run a business and not succeed and I'm not trying to run him down. It just doesn't always work. I'm reasonably sure he has more than enough mechanical savvy, just lacks the business mentality.

Seems like if a guy could get Jim to agree to remain part of it, everybody could win.....including the customer.

Whaddaya think?

Al

[RICK LAKE]

A Snake Hi AL. Your right First you fix the problems, make a much better product. You have to bring the parts into todays times, without taking away the orginal look. Kuntz gets top dollar for building FE motors. I hear they are top self when done. He stands behind his work. Billy Gliddon built a set for EBrock that had great numbers. Mike Lefevers Did the same for Shelbys motor by hacking off the exhaust side of the heads with larger ports and maken the exhaust flow at amost 75% of the intake. It takes many hours and hard work to keep a product at the top of the field. ERA is one of the reasons a boght there car. Not as orginial as the 60's cars but stronger, better designed, no extras spared. The car is improved on all the time. ERA has a full time engineer there for this. I saw Stacy P. cobra hit the tire wall in turn 13 at 110 mph head on. The nose was crushed, the man was brused and lumped up but the car was solid the frame was not bent, only the lift jack plate, oil cooler, and raditor. We where going to fix it but he was too sore. The car is a tank. To Jim Dove, Hire a manager, fix the product,get new people and CHANGE THE GOD DAMN NAME!!!! The rest will take care of itself. It's simple. I would love to buy a piece of the company and take a shot. I allready have 30 years playing with cars. See you later AL one problem I do not want to move. I have a nice size Barn in the back yard, all we need is CNC machine, foundry, and some molds. I learned how to do this in metal class in Highschool. I bet US Steel has a few people that would like to help and need a job. All we need is capital. Rick Lake