De-Stroked / High-Winding FE?

[decooney]

Just for grins...,
Have any of you in FE land out there ever built a de-stroked, high-winding FE? Like de-stroking a 427 or 428 to a 352 or less?

No proof, but I heard second hand that someone built a light weight version that rev'd 8K, with little effort. Can't imagine what that would sound like coming from an FE through two open side-pipes.


Big-Block De-Stroker!

[Woodz428]

I haven't seen one in a street car, but Ted Wells, a drag racer of note in days gone by built a raging 352 back in the early '70's he ran in a 54 Ford in M/P. It was pretty wicked an pulled some very high rpm's. I think it could be a fun exercise.

[ToyCollector]

Would it require a custom ground crank? Haven't had time to check the books to see what FE crank has the least amount of stroke.

[Sizzler]

You'd use one of the smaller FE cranks.
I think the 352FE used a 3.5" stroke, and there was a 332FE as well.

Destroked FE would be good for racing, don't know that I'd want to listen to it much in real world (street) use.

[Woodz428]

The available cranks are the 352/360 which use a 3.5 stroke and the mentioned 332 3.3 crank although it would probably be a hard one to find.The best bet would probably be a 330FT forged crank with a 3.3 stroke or the 361 FT cranks at 3.5 also forged. The nose of these are larger than the FE and would need to be ground down to the FE size, but it is a simple operation. A 3.3 in a 428 sized bore would give about 355 inches and in a 390 bore about 340.

[cobra427hp]

Ford built some 427 blocks with 352 cranks for experimental Nascar back in 64-65 when Nascar was thinking about capping cubic inches at 400. There was a magazine article with the engine on the cover at the time calling it "Ford's Mistery 396" Nascar motor. There was a guy who put a Ford 396 in his 69 Talledega Torino and just wasted just about anybody on the streets in the Houston area. Unreal RPM with power!

[SFfiredog]

The 396ci nascar engines were commonly used on the short tracks and road courses. If you study period photos you will see "396 CI" instead of "427 CI" painted on the hood of many of the nascar Fords.
I remember a guy running a 352ci Super Stock '63 or '64 Galaxie.
I think he ran SS/N or SS/M and he used to spin the motor 8800 rpm.

--Mike

[decooney]

Hey Mike -

Sounds neat. Yes, I noticed those "396" numbers painted on the hoods and wondered.

Any idea about what sort of rocker assembly they used on these high-revving motors back then? Standard rockers and shafts or something custom... I wonder how well they held up... I Might have to build a winder down the road or something just to try something different on the side.

[thorconstr]

The shop that is building my aluminum 427 (Pat Burke-Ocean State Performance) is running a de-stroked, Skat billet crank, sleeved Shelby aluminum 427 at 434 cu. in. The engine is in a 3300 pound 1966 Fairlane running in a nostalsia class at the drags. Last weekend he turned an 8.97 ET at 151 MPH. Thats with a 4 speed and 5.73 rear gears. He is going thru the traps at 9200 RPM in 4th. No I'm not blowing wind up your skirt! You can reach Pat at 401-737-1495

[foothills gary]

Just for grins,would a destroked 428 at 352ci be considered a small big block(SBB) vs. a big small block 427 stroker(BSB) that is 351W based? Hmmm...I haven't seem this one discussed on CC before.Should be good for 14-15 pages.

[chuckbrandt]

You pay shipping and they are yours! Which rod would this engine use? I have a couple sets of the "long rod" if you need also. I'd really like to hear one of these run.

Chuck Brandt

[Anthony]

I have often thought about building a destoked 427. I thiink the FT 330 and 361 forged cranks are good starting places, but ina addition to the snout needing to be turned down, you also need to grind the rear flange thinner where the flywheel attaches, and also you need to regrind all the counterweights, as these cranks are very heavy, and you need to take some of that extra mass off of it so it can spool up quicker.

Regarding the rods, you would probably regrind the journals for BBC rods, and use something like a 7.0" length, for a high rod/stroke ratio.

pistons would be custom.

As for the heads, probably something like Dove tunnel port with the raised exhaust ports.

It definitely would be something different.

Or, you could buy ex-nascar stuff and build a 351W.

[Bart Carter]

Originally posted by Anthony Or, you could buy ex-nascar stuff and build a 351W.

That would be my first choice. With Yates or equivalent heads most people can't even tell what the engine is anyway.

NASCAR 351 into a Cobra at Levy Racing

[Sizzler]

Originally posted by Anthony


Regarding the rods, you would probably regrind the journals for BBC rods, and use something like a 7.0" length, for a high rod/stroke ratio.

pistons would be custom.

As for the heads, probably something like Dove tunnel port with the raised exhaust ports.

It definitely would be something different.

I've thought about this too. Questions to myself were, given the heavier crank, AND the longer (heavier rods), what if anything would be gained as far as wind-up speed? Add to such a motor the high # springs in the valve train needed to control things at the projected max rpm, and yes, at 7-8K rpm, the engine would scream, but anywhere below that rpm range you'd probably be down on power and hurting yourself. My opinion then and now is it might make sense on a race engine/car, but not much sense with regards to a primarily street driven car.

Such an engine though might be better matched to the trans/diff ratio's that seem to be available. Lower torque would make 1st gear something to use again, and a 5th or 6th gear could potentially be run all the way through. 198+ anyone?

[SFfiredog]

Ok boys, you wanna get crazy, here we go.
Start with someone's old worn out .030" or .040" '67 or '68 "juice" side oiler block (for the Jesel shaft rocker oiling)
bore it to 4.30 (which still shouldn't hit water and should keep the block strong) and install .125" ductile iron diesel cylinder sleeves.
Finish bore the block to 4.180
De-stroke an iron 352 crank to 3.35" with 2.100" rod journals
The iron 352 crank weighs much less than a steel crank and is more than strong enough at that stroke.
Custom 6.95" Oliver billet rods with large journal small block Chevy journal size
CP pistons 14 to 1 compression
It would be about 366ci
Keith Craft or Kuntz & Co Edelbrock heads with relocated intake and exhaust ports, 2.15 intake and 1.65 titanium exhaust valves
with about a 60cc (or smaller) combustion chamber. Intake flow around 360 to 370 cfm and exhaust flow around 250 to 260 cfm @ .750" lift
Jesel or T&D valvetrain
Roller cam 278 deg. intake 284 deg. exh. @.050", .780" lift 105 deg. lobe centers. Jesel roller lifters and Manton tapered pushrods.
Danny Bee cam belt drive
Edelbrock Victor intake with a 950 Holley HP 4150 carb
Dry-sump oiling system.
Should make about 650 to 675 hp (or more) at 9500 to 9800 rpm
Drop the compression and cam size for limited street use and make 550 to 575 hp at 8200 to 8500 rpm.
Get ready to change a lot of valve springs!
Someone finance it, I'll be happy to build it

--Mike

[Woodz428]

That's what I'm talking about!

[Anthony]

regarding heads, I heard from somebody that Kuntz stated that the best flowing FE head after reworking was the Dove Tunnel port, over 400 cfm intake, (excluding SOHC). With the raised exhaust ports, Dove claims 300 cfm on the exhaust. However, you have to use a 4.23 bore or larger for the heads to fit.

Moldex will rework your FT crank for about $1000, including offset grinding journals and tuftriding/heat treatment.

You can pick up a single four spider intake for the tunnel port for about $300-400. I bought one for about $250.

[PatBurke]

It sounds like you guys are describing my race engine. Here are the details:434 ci FE, Shelby 4.375" bore aluminum block, Scat 3.600" ultralight billet crank, MGP 6.800" BBC aluminum rods, JE 15.8 to 1 pistons, .875" lift solid roller cam, Jesel lifters, Smith Bros tapered pushrods, T&D 1.8 rockers, Dove raised port MR heads w/ raised exhaust port (380 in / 295 ex) and 56 cc chambers, Danny Bee belt drive, carbon fiber tunnelram intake, two DaVinci HP 1000 annular booster 3 circuit carbs, belt drive distributor, Peterson two stage external oil pump, Moroso 4 vane vacuum pump. It makes around 875 HP naturally aspirated at sea level. In my 3150 lb '66 Fairlane we launch at 7500, shift it at 9500 and it has gone 8.97 @ 151 mph at 1300 ft corrected altitude. You can check out some pictures at www.oceanstateperformance.com and click on the "customers" link. You can also see a couple of pic's on "my CC photo gallery". BTW, the engine is for sale if anyone's interested. Take out some cam & valve spring, mill the dome off the pistons, and maybe put a single plane single 4 intake on (or leave the carbon fiber) and it would be one hell of a Cobra engine.

As for some of the other questions I can shed some light from personal experience.
1) The first crank that I used in this engine was a reworked 361 (3.500" stroke) piece that saw 9500 rpm with not problems. I changed it to save wieght ( 56 lbs billet vs. 64 lbs steel). I have 2 of these steel cranks for sale as well . One 3.600" w/ BBC rod journals and one 3.500" w/ SBC rod journals.
2) A rod longer than 6.850" in these engines seems to make them very peaky. Probably has to do with the dwell time at TDC. The hot set up that I'd like to try is a short deck block with a shorter rod, shorter compression hieght piston, and narrower intake manifold with a straighter intake valve shot. I had some promises from Genesis for a thick deck block that I could mill down but it never happened.
3) I would highly recommend the T&D rocker system over the Jesel in any application with big RPM and spring pressure. The T&D base plate setup picking up off the 5 head bolts is far superior to the Jesel bolting to the 4 stock rocker stand locations. The only down side to the T&D's is the required milling of the heads but IMO any engine at this level won't be going back to stock rockers again anyways so it's a non issue.
4) Valve springs are a big maintenance item in an engine like this. The best I've found so far are from PSI and we get 15 passes on a set. They setup at 380 lbs seat pressure and are used up at 300. I've tried Manley "Nextech" (2-3 passes before we'd be changing 1 or 2 per pass), Erson same as Manleys, Comp's 6-8 passes.
5) The tunnel port head will flow big CFM on the intake side but we can make more power with a raised MR type port with similar CFM and much better air speed.

So that's my .02 cents on the subject. Someone give me a call and take this engine off my hands so I can start the next project. You'd definately be the man with the meanest engine compartment at any event you went to!!

Thanks CC,
Pat Burke

[decooney]

Wow Pat. I had no idea what my original inquiry would do. Thanks for responding. Nice to see people doing and trying different things with FEs out there... 8.97 is really something.

[Cracker]

7-8k rpm's should be available with a 427 Stroke - shouldn't it? I have a max shift point of 7,000 with my 427 standard stroke and it just still wants to go but I don't let it. A builder on this site, **** ****** shifts his 428 at 8200 and it lasted the entire season, so why the short stroke - what gain? George Anderson, I believe shifts at 7,200 or is that Don Borders - but one of them does with confidence as long as the engine/valve train, etc. etc. is set up properly. Sorry to be a fuddy duddy but I don't see the potential unless a short stroke was getting you 10-11K shift points.