Goofy FE question, but need answer. :)

[Brent Mills]

Ok, so I'm using a 390 for the time being, and it's one that I bought a year or so ago running and built fairly stout...10:1, 540 lift, 240 duration, runs and sounds pretty darn good.

Here's the wierd part. The guy I bought it from said it had a solid cam, and I have adjusted accordingly a couple times now, but when I went to fix a manifold gasket leak I noticed the lifters are hydrolic (correct me if I am wrong, but no solid lifter would have an oil hole on the side and the pushrod cup wouldn't have a retaining clip, correct?)...

So now what? The engine has run for several thousand miles with .022/.024 lash. Do I remove all the lash now or just keep it as it was? What procedure do I use if I now make a change to hyrolic specs?

[mr0077]

Brent, that IS a bit of an unusual situation you find yourself in...and it brings up a follow-on question: is it a hydraulic cam and lifters or is it a mechanical cam with hydraulic lifters?

If it is a hydraulic cam, I would be a little concerned about possible damage to the lifters from running at full extension for awhile (which brings up the question of the adjusters...did you have to screw them all the way out to make room for the lifter extension when you adjusted them?). Obviously, the "right" thing to do would be to do is pull the lifters and inspect, but because of the objective of the lash, I think you could do a normal hydraulic adjustment and run it for awhile...if there is damage it would show up in lifter noise or adjustment issues.

If it is a mechanical cam with hydraulic lifters...? Seems I've heard you can put hydraulics on a mechanical, but not the other way around...anyone know the answer to this one?

I guess I would want to first find out if it is a hydraulic or mechanical cam. Do you have the cam card?

[Ron61]

Brent,

Ken is correct about you can run hydraulic lifters with a solid cam. I knew a guy here once who did it as he didn't want to mess with adjusting lifters all the time. He set it where the hydraulic lifters had enough clearance to work and that seemed to keep him from ever having to adjust. But I don't know if that would be good for any car that is going to turn high RPMs as he just ran his on the street and it never saw above 6,000. And I am really not sure what the advantage, if any would be. Check as Ken said and find out is the cam is mechanical or hydraulic. Since you are that far into it, it might be good to make sure the cam and lifters match.

Ron

[speed220mph]

Brent: A quick way to determine whether or not the lifters in your engine are solid or hydraulic is to pull a valve cover, then find a rocker arm whose valve is on its seat. In other words, there's a little lash at the rocker arm. Now, push the rocker arm so it's lighly against the pushrod, then push the rocker arm hard to see if there's any additional movement. If it's a hydraulic lifter there will be a slight amount of movement as you push the lifter plunger into the lifter body. If there's no movement no matter how hard you push, you've got solid lifters.

By the way, the term "solid" used in this context doesn't mean the lifter is one solid chunk, but it's hollow and the pushrod cup is fixed solid in the lifter body rather than sittting on top of a compressible plunger as with the hydraulic setup.

Hope that's a hint that works for you.

Tom

[MOTORHEAD]

Brent:
I found the same situation when I disassembled my 427!!
It had been built by a Kirkham sub-contractor who was no longer in business. The lifters had oil holes and push-rod cups held in with circlips. When I took them apart, NO Plungers!! I don't know if they were built that way, or if they were modified hydraulics.
I switched to hydraulic lifter cam and lifters and stashed the original cam and lifters. I'll have to dig them out and take another look out of curiousity. I'll let you know if I come up with anything interesting.
Ted

[CJ428CJ]

Brent,

Your cam specs sound a lot like mine. I have an Isky with .535 lift and 240@.050, .022 hot lash. I also have the Isky solid lifters which do look like hydraulics complete with the retaining clip. I don't recall whether or not they had an oil hole on the side. But, like you, when I first saw them I said to myself "these are the wrong lifters - they sent me hydraulics." Upon closer inspection, like Tom said, I was able to confirm that the pushrod cup was affixed solidly in the lifter body and there was no movable plunger.

Chris

[Rick Parker]

Brent: Speed220mph is right on, Motorhead and CJ428CJ have given a good description of the lifters themselves, the hole in the side of the body takes oil volume and pressure as it travels up and down and passes it through the orfice hole that the pushrod sits on, through the pushrod and to the pivot at the rocker arm adjuster top side. With the exception of 'Shell Type" the lifter bodies are often times the same with just a seat for the pushrod held in with a clip, and yes there may be a little movement in the seat itself. All of the internal adjusting and bleed down mechanism is added by the manufacturer IF they are to be Hydraulics.

Rick

[Excaliber]

I'm pretty sure if they are WORKING hyd lifters you would have noticed major valve problems by now. With the .022 clearance and a hyd lifter functioning correctly the valve train noise would have been obvious! It would have clattered something fierce!

,,,,and thats NOT a goofy question, it's a great question. Now HERES a goofy one.

1. How much torque on the head bolts for a 427 side oiler?
2. Is the torque increased if the compression is over 12 to 1?

Bonus question:
Any of you guys RE-TORQUE your heads after running that new engine for a while?

[Anthony]

I believe that the solid lifters were made in two configurations,

1) Shell type lifter, with the pushrod seat deeper in the lifter. The lifter is like an inverted cup. They require a longer pushrod than the hydraulic lifters. I think these are lighter of the two versions, and I see alot of people prefer these over the 2nd type.

2) Standard lifter? type, that the pushrod seat is near the top of the lifter, like a hydraulic lifter, so they take the same length psuhrod, or near the same length. This is the type it sems you have. If you can't push on the pushrod end of the rocker to colllapse the lifter (if it's hydraulic), and you're still not sure, you can adjust the lash to 0, and then continue to tighten the lash. Either the lifter will collapse confirming a hydraulic lifter, or the valve will start to open, confirming a solid lifter. If you have a dial guage, you can set it on the valve spring retainer to detect movement.

I don't have a lot of experience with these engines, I'm still learning.

The other thing is the cam design type. I think hydraulic cams and solid lifter cams have different design style ramps and base circles, as the hydraulic lifter has always 0 lash. The ramps on the cam I think are designed differently to accomadate this, including the valve closing rates as well. I wouldn't run mixed parts, as you may damage the valves and seats. Cam manufacturers always state that you can't mix the parts.

[mr0077]

Ernie brings up a thought, but I'm not sure if this is correct...isn't the 390 a mechanical lifter moter? If so, if you put hydraulic lifters in it, would they have the oil supply to "pump" up and function as hydraulica? If not, then they would act as mechanical lifters, right?
earnie, my book shows 100-110 ft-lbs for the factory head bolts (does ARP have separate specs? Don't know...), and I've never heard anyone recommend different torque numbers for higher compression...
Retorquing, I've heard yes and no, depending on the head gasket, but I think the phrase is "...retorquing is not necessary...", but I never heard any manufacturer say NOT to retorque...retorquing seems to be a good idea as a rule of thumb.

[Excaliber]

Hmmmm,,,,, I was thinking the vast majority of 390's were hyd lifters. The 427's were mechanical only depending on year of motor, thus they required machine work if you wanted to run hyd lifters.

The "performance" 390's that pre-dated the 427 (EARLY 60's) were solid lifters.

I've never heard of anybody changing torque specs based on ARP bolts or high compression, just thought I'd check! I, for one, DO like to re-torque, I could be wrong.

[mr0077]

Ernie, you're right, had a brain fart here...only the "HP" 390s ('61-'63) were mechanical-lifter, the rest of the 390s were hydraulic.

[luke-44]

Brent - Anthony is correct - there were 2 styles of solid lifters used in FE's....here is the pic from "Big Block Ford Engines", by Steve Christ fyi. Hope this helps,

[Anthony]

Luke, the second type was called the "barbell" type, as you can see from the profile. The lifter Brent may have may be a full body outer shell, but with a fixed plunger inside, with the pushrod seat near the top. A solid steel lifter I think would be very heavy, so to make the solid lifter 2 piece would cut down on the weight, with havin a cavity inside the lifter. I would think tightening the valve lash until either the pushrod moves or the valve moves will determine what type of lifter, other than taking out the lifter itself and inspecting it.

I don't know if you can use the barbell type in a hydraulic lifter block, but I think you can use the shell type, and probably a full body solid lifter like what brent may have.

[RICK LAKE]

Brent Just look at the end of he push rod, If it has a hole through the middle it's hydrolic, if solid they are shell lifter that look like hydro's without the guts. Hydros are .300" taller the the shell lifters but look the same. How long is the pushrods? 9.157 that's a shell lifter but has a little play to adjust. Rick Lake ps I switch my motor over to real hydro lifters, you need to use SB ford lifters and hollow pushrods. If in doubt ask Joe or George.

[Brent Mills]

Thanks everyone...They are solids...Threw me for a loop as I had only seen the shell type solids on my other engines, so I thought for sure something was strange. All back together and running woderfully.

[Michael C Henry]

Didn't Ford produce a T bird at least one year that had a Hydraulic lifter set up.That is what I remember maybe ( 68 or 69)something like 375 hp.

[Keithc8]

The lifters you have in your engine Brett are of the small block design with the oil hole for the pushrod oiling style valvetrain found on a small block Ford. They are the same diameter and about the same lenght as the regular lifter. They are easy to get and work just fine in FE engines. We have used them for years because the dump bell lifter were bad about breaking. Keith