Le Mans Winning GT-40's 427 FE's

Excaliber · #1 (**permalink**) 03-09-2005, 02:56 PM

In all the time I've been here on Club Cobra there has been very little discussion of the "specs" of the original Side Oilers used in the Le Mans winning GT-40's.

What compression? What heads? Were those alloy heads? Single carb with center pivot floats I would guess. Con Rods and Crank Shaft used? Compression ratio? How many of these Big Block GT-40's competed? In fact, how many were made?

5 speed transaxle, with 5th being overdrive? What ratio I wonder? Top speed, what 210 or so? Pictures of the engines? When did that NASCAR crank come out and did any of the GT's use it?

So many questions! Got ANY answers?

RICK LAKE · #2 (**permalink**) 03-09-2005, 03:09 PM

excaliber The motors in the GT-40 where pretty much stock out of the crates. They there blue printed and the cams where changed but I think that was about it. Jim Holden is a GT expert. He could fill in the answers for your questions. The nascar crank had wider journals for the wider rods they where running. High rpm was causing bearing failures. Wider spread out the pressure of the rod on the crank surface and gave more oiling surface for the bearing to ride on. Compression was 12.5. I am sure some of the others can fill in the rest. Rick Lake

Naumoff · #3 (**permalink**) 03-09-2005, 04:51 PM

Why do the small block and 460 guys seem to ignore the success of the FE 427 And just want to beet up on them? Stock for stock the 427 FE has got them beet hands down. It was the 427 FE that won at LeMans, not the 289. Give respect where respect is due. The 427 FE they raced with in the mide 60s you could get in your Galaxie.

Just venting a little

Tony

What'saCobra? · #4 (**permalink**) 03-09-2005, 06:23 PM

Who's ignoring the BBF's? Most kits have some sort of FE installed and hundreds and hundreds of original Cobras all have 427's. But, they didn't have anything to do with winning the World Championship of Makes with Cobras, of course.

By the way, Rick, the failure of 427 GT40 engines weren't really the rpm's, since many chevies turned those easy 6500 rpms and more. The rod/crank design was at fault and still is. The big rod end and journal diameter is too large, causing surface to surface speeds to exceed the sheer strength of the oils available at the time.

How about this for a polite opinion:
The 1966 MKII 427 engines at Le Mans had Chrysler Rod Bearings, cut down cranks and used Chrysler Rods, a hot rod modification from the drag racers which allowed the engines to last the 24 hour race. Of course, this is only my opinion, based on inside dope from a FORD ex-ex.

Naumoff · #5 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 01:17 PM

Lets ask Carrol Shelby. Why did he start Building 427 Cobras CSX4000 first and not the 289FIA? Just personal preference?And we can ask him about the rods too. Not that it matters because I'm not racing at 6500rpm for 24 hours.

Tony

What'saCobra? · #6 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 02:34 PM

Go ahead and ask him.

While you are at it, ask him of which did he sell more? Of which did he build more? Which one won more races?

He didn't start by building FIAs, but 260 cubed street cars.

He couldn't get rid of the 427s at the end of production, they were sitting around outside at the airport apron in various stages of incompletion. He couldn't even give them away, people and dealers were so upset about his switcheroo to the 428s for the same price.

It was the kit makers that really made the 427 popular and they should be thanked for keeping the lamp lit on the history and style of the car.

He was glad not to be involved building the 427's anymore, nothing but troubles.

But, it wasn't his decision, anyway. FORD told him to quit with the 427 stuff and concentrate on winning Le Mans with the GT40s. They used the 1968 certification laws as good cover to quit a money loser production line.

The only people that made money on the 427's were the few serious dealers and AC Cars, Ltd., who, of course, made ALL the Cobras (with very rare exception) and still built the 427 with a 289 in it for another few years, and then developed the 302 MKIV version, that sold more cars than all the 427's combined.

Cal Metal · #7 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 03:06 PM

Many 427 Cobras were sitting in dealer showrooms as late as 1970. A very tough sell, given the amenities and price that the Cobra was asking.

We are not--I REPEAT--not going to get into one of these 289/427 imbroglios that have surfaced on CC in the past. Those battles have made the original Cobra/Ferrari Wars look like a Girl Scout picnic.

Respect the cars for what they were, and the corresponding powerplants that powered them. They both have a place in the historical record. Leave it at that.

RACER X #99 · #8 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 03:09 PM

What's a,

Perfect, thank you very much.

bmalone · #9 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 03:12 PM

They were de-tuned tunnel-ports.

chuckbrandt · #10 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 03:32 PM

I'm sure there are people on here that know more about it than I do but here is what I learned at the Monterey Historics in 2003.

Below is a picture of the lemans winning engine as presented by ford in their booth. I also talked to Lee Holman and asked about it specifically what cam and compression it was running.

His comment was "they were like truck engines" with 9:1 compression and he thought something like the H-M 310 solid cam. I also asked about the valve train and he said it was just stock adjustable stuff, although I think he mentioned upgraded shafts.

Looking at the engine it has a dry sump oiling system, aluminum medium riser heads, and a lemans bowled single holley with no choke sitting on a sidewinder intake. I have a few more pictures of the engine if anyone wants to see them.

Chuck

Excaliber · #11 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 04:19 PM

Interesting picture there Chuck. I figured they would have used alloy heads, was surprised to see what appears to be an alloy water pump.

Another surprise is the ultra low compression and medium riser head configuration. I guess they had "enough" power and the emphasis was on making it live.

Still true today, "making it live" IS the biggest challenge for any engine running Le Mans for 24 hrs.

DO POST some more pics!!!

chuckbrandt · #12 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 04:40 PM

Okay, you asked for it, hopefully you aren't on dial up

Chuck

First pictures is all 6 MkIV (big block) GT-40s

Excaliber · #13 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 05:00 PM

Hmmmm,,, No overdrive in that trans box. With top speeds in the 200 mph range the rear gear ratio must have been fairly high.

485 is less horse than I expected, but obvioulsy enough to get the job done!

I've never seen a timing chain cover like that one, extends down in front of the oil pan. No doubt a special deal for the dry sump system.

Commodore · #14 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 05:17 PM

I could be very wrong but wasn't the Gulf #6 GT-40 that won LeMans two times (so far the only car to ever accomplish that feat) a Mark II? Number 6 and number 7 were small blocks with webers. Took a few car out to the Barrett Jackson at the height of the collector craze for a Greenwich, CT man who bought #6 from Harley Kluxton in AZ. He sold it a few years ago. I've lost track of it since then. The yellow car (MK IV with 427) is living in NY State and is registered! If you are lucky enought to catch it, every now and then, on nice days, it's out there.

Naumoff · #15 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 05:39 PM

When I was a teenager A guy I used to help work on FE muscle cars took me to see a man In Rockville, Md that had sold his original 289 and 427 Cobras to buy a small block GT40. Car was dark blue. Can't remember his name but my freind said he was a lawyer for the CIA. Does anyone know of this guy? The year was 1982 I think. Could it be #4? That engine is pretty cool. I love those valve covers.

Tony

Excaliber · #16 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 07:37 PM

Well Commodore, thats exactly the kind of thing this thread is all about. I was distinctly under the impression that the winning Le Mans GT-40's were the Big Block cars.

...but were they? What DID the small block (early) GT-40's accomplish as far as race wins go?

bmalone · #17 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 07:59 PM

'66 and '67 FE-powered. '68 and '69 SB powered.

Remember, there was more than one team entered. I still maintain the Shelby team cars in either '66 or '67 ran TPs. This I was told by Phil Remington at Bob Evans' summer picnic.

bkozlow · #18 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 08:23 PM

Commodore,

The Gulf car is a Mark I GT-40. The chassis number should be FAV-1075. It is the winningest GT-40. The original chassis was replaced before the 1969 LeMans race, which the car won as I remember. The top speed of the Mark IIA model GT-40 was 218 mph. About 12 Mark II's were made. In 1967 Mark IIA's were converted to MarkIIB's and ran along side the Mark IV's. The Mark III was the street model Gt-40 which had round headlights and extended rear end. All MarkII's from 1966 Lemans on ran with full roll cages. The low compression was not only for durability but the real reason was they had to run on lower octaine European fuel for LeMans, but could use higher compression for Sebring and Daytona as the gas supplied was much better than the European gas.

Bill K

What'saCobra? · #19 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 08:41 PM

BM
My source also confirms TP's used in 1966.

One was just sold to a nice fellow in Sweden for £16K, not too high, not too low. Just about correct for a correct engine for a Le Mans GT40 MKII.

He really needed it for his car, so the seller reluctantly said good bye Here's a picture, not perfect, but lookable...

Excaliber · #20 (**permalink**) 03-10-2005, 09:22 PM

Whatsa that looks like a 2X4 intake. It does appear to have the correct shape on the runners for a tunnel port. Did they make 2X4 tunnel ports?

Not to mention there iron heads. I would guess the Factory Teams would have run the alloy heads, others might have run what ever they thought would work.



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