cryogenics and FE's

[elgecko]

Looking for updated info on cryo freezing of engine parts. My builder recommended cryo-freezing my solid lifter Comp Cam and lifters.
Anyone out there tried it? If not, I'll go first.
The builder said they send them to someplace in Oklahoma City, OK.
Dave

[G.R.]

Probably sounds dumb but (I'm not a guru on mechanics) why?

[SCOBRAC]

Metal, like all materials has a matrix the matrix of most materials is decided at the time it is made. It has to do with gravity, tempature and electromagnetic influences nobody can fully predict.

This is in part why Ford went to high nickle content alloy for it's side oilers. The process involves freezing at very low temperatures with liquid nitrogen. The process realigns the matrix of all metals into a more stable pattern. Zero gravity has a similar effect on materials... The result is generally a 200% greater life for machine parts, tools, engine parts. Strength is also increased.

However... Therein lies the rub. If a treatmment costs $2000 and a block will last 150k miles between borings is it wort it? As for valvetrain, I'm sceptical a cryo treatment will yield enough benefit to justify the cost. Most street engines are far more durable and far stronger than needed with a good quality synthetic and regular service.

Get a quote, don't forget prep (total 100% disassembly) and shipping. Maybe it's worth it, maybe it isn't.

I know several snipers who have cryo'd their M40 barrels with great gains in accuracy. This process was about $500. for a single rifle barrel. Cheap considering it puts enemy mortar's out of reach.

[Excaliber]

From what I've read the crogenic rifle barrels have the same basic problem as the camshaft, is it worth it? Having looked at some of the scientific analysis tests I've come to the conclusion that it does not increase accuracy enough to warrant the cost. Some have said it has no impact on accuracy, conflicting test data at best. It may depend on the individual rifle barrel in question. I know all tires are not created equal, no doubt that holds true for barrels as well. If I'm stakeing my life on my rifle barrel, well heck yeah I want it treated!

It does make the barrel "last longer". How much longer? The numbers suggest you won't live long enough to fire enough rounds through the barrel to make any difference in your lifetime! But your Grandson might appreciate it.

I think the benefits of cryogen treatment in general are simply not worth the investment to the average race guy. Let alone the average street car guy! I'll leave it for the deep pocket guys where "cost is no object". Nothing wrong with it, won't hurt, if you have an unlimited budget, go for it!

[RICK LAKE]

elgecko Dave have you tryed to talk to either the Nascar guys or 1/4 prostock or top fuel. I know that nascar motor builder tryed this when it came out. Never saw anything on how much better the parts lasted. I think that it all comes back to how hard you are going to push your motor and how well the machinist did his job. If you put a 6500 rpm chip in your MSD box, and use a PRE-OILER EVERYTIME before you start your engine. I see no problem with a motor going 50K under hard abuse. Once a year I would pull the oil pan and check the rod bearings on clearance. There are alot of tricks to do to engines, coatings for pistons,valves,crank, heads to help heat stay in a certain place, oil drain back to the bottom fasterand the list goes on. The car you drive to work everyday doesn't have any of this done and still will go 100K if the oil is change on a 3K. I would tell you to save your money and buy top qualitity parts. Crank ,rods, and pistons, and bearings. Your car is not a GUN barrel, but it may travel alot farer than that bullet and still hit it's mark Rick Lake

[CSX 4027]

Did it with Brake Rotors. Worked Great. I did a comparison with non cryo of the same type and MFG.

Although sauted in garlic might not be bad either

[Jack Zupan]

I do chemistry for a living and sometimes see the world as a bunch of molecules. I have seen some stuff on cryogenic treatment of various automobile parts. I just can't see that it would do anything. As I understand it you cool the parts down to near absolute zero and then let it come back to room temperature under carefully controlled conditions. Absolute zero is the temperature at which all molecular motion stops, this is 273 degrees below zero centigrade. The thing is I can't see how anything can change under these conditions since you are slowing molecular motion to almost nothing. It seems to me that you would have to go in the opposite direction, that is heat up the parts until the molecules can move enough to arrange in the most stable configuration. This is annealing and is used to stress relieve steel and glass. At room temperature steel is so far below it's melting point that nothing much happens to the structure so why would going even colder have an effect.

I have been wrong plenty of times before so I guess it's not impossible the process works but it sure is counterintuitive. The positive responses I have seen have all been testimonial and not really measured differences though I confess I haven't chased down a lot of information on this subject. Nevertheless one should never underestimate the power of a placebo effect.

Jack Z.

[Excaliber]

Absolute zero is about -459 Deg F. very difficult to reach even under extreme lab conditions, but you can get "close" to that.

Liquid nitrogen is about -320 Deg F (77 Kelvin).
They use Liquid Nitrogen for Cryo. Close enough to "zero" for Goverment work.

The surface of Pluto is about -370 to -390 Deg F, not sure about Mars.

Link to cryo treatment site:
http://www.300below.com/site/home.html
The information presented there may be some what "bias".

[elgecko]

Thanks for all the imput. My "builder" said they have been having "problems" with the Comp cams being "soft" and that is why he is recommending cryo-freezing. Maybe he has "connections" ($$$$$) with the cryo place. MAYBE it's just a "RIP OFF". If my Comp Cam (solid) doesn't go flat, does that mean cryo-freezing works and money was well spent?
Gee, I really have other things to do with my project than have to worry about something like this.
Dave

[Excaliber]

I just put a Comp cam in my side oiler, today in fact! "Dry Fit", assemble crank, rods/pistons, cam, lifters, heads, rockers, etc just to check for clearances and valve train geometry before "final" assembly (coming soon).

But I digress...

I'm using Comp springs that match the cam profile (along with keepers, spacers, etc.). I have dual springs with a third "spring" for dampening. Initially I'll use the single spring to reduce breakin load on the cam lobes. This will allow the lifters to "rotate" in their bore and "seat" nicely to their individual cam lobe. After it's run in and all are seated I'll remove the single springs and re-assemble with the full spring set.

I'll use compressed air to hold the valves in place with the piston at TDC while I use a special tool to depress the single valve spring to remove the keepers, etc. Install ALL the springs and keepers and release air pressure. Go to the next one. Yeah, pain in the butt, long laborius process. Beats the heck out of "flat cam" though!

You MIGHT get lucky and be able to use ALL the springs the first go 'round. But typically THAT is exactly what causes cam lobes to go flat. In about 20 to 30 minutes the lobes are "seated" or "screwed", you'll know pretty quick which it's going to be.

I wonder if your builder would actually do the "two step" to break in the new cam? It is a lot of work, doing cryo might buy "him" a little insurance and avoid the "two step" valve spring break in procedure?

By the way, George from GESSFORD is walking me through this build, HE reommended the "two step"! Who am I to argue with HIM!

PS
My pushrods are to short, gotta order new custom ones. The new pistons are a perfect fit and all other clearances are good to go!

[Specialk]

I have a friend with a Class 8 SCORE offroad truck. He used to completely wipeout a set of brake rotors in a weekend. You could see the cooling fins, and what material was left was paper thin. He started having the rotors crogenically treated, and now he always has some meat left.

I believe in it for brake rotors!

[Excaliber]

You know I think your right Kris! Brake rotors wear SO fast in racing conditions that would be one area I would consider. I'm not racing that hard, but the logic for rotors makes sense!