Ate the Cam in the new 482 %$#^%$#^%$

Feder · #1 (**permalink**) 07-10-2005, 07:59 PM

Hi all. My first post on this board, so first Ill introduce Myself. My name is Darryl Im from Bothell Washington. Im an old fart just past 50 and been playing with FEs and mopars My whole life. Guess I just like motors with flat pans and rail rockers.
Brent, We talked at the greenwood carshow. I was with My son Justyn. I have a 10.00 Mopar racecar a 51 Ford with a smallblock Ford. A chopped 49 Merc with a cad motor and a 66 LTD 4 dr hardtop with a factory 390 4 spd.
The car that ate the cam is My sons 50 Merc. It had a 428 4 sd.
Now We just put in a Kieth Craft 482 shortblock. We ordered the shortblock minus the cam. ( NO WAY IS K C in any way tied to the cam failure) My Son purchased the cam-lifters and springs from Crower. I have assembled many engines in the past, with only one cam failure. My fault, first time for a performance cam didnt know about breakin. Anyway back to the cam. I lubed the lobes as usual then the lifters with the supplied lube from crower. With the intake off I installed the pushrods and rockers and pre set the valvelash. Removed them. Then did the runout on the bellhousing and set it with off set dowels.
We then turned it over to TDC on # 1.
Then We removed all the lifters one by one and applied more break in lube on the bottoms of them. I also had some comp cams lube and added that to the oil.
From there We finished assembly and pre oiled it (80 psi). When oil came out between the adjuster nut and pushrods We stopped. Without rolling the motor over any more. Put it in the car the following day.
Started it, immediatly raising the RPMs to 23 to 2500. Set the timing to 38 total and kept water on the radiator so We never exceded 180 degrees for 25 minutes.
I used Delo 400 for breakin even added 1 quart of Hyper lube racing additive. The car has a 9 qt aluminum pan.
The valves did sound EXTRA noisy during break in but We set them cold and thought that was why. It was gettin late so We quit for the day. The next day I
Changed the oil and filter then started it, brought it up to tempreset the valves hot 22 and 24 per spec.
ALL of them were 10 to 13 thou beyond spec.
I took the car for a spin keeping the RPMs below 4000 didnt get 2 blocks and the valves were thrashing again. Went straight home pulled the dizzy and #5 ex lifter and it was seriously ate up.
After removing the cam today only a couple lifters lived. Three were real bad on # 1 & 5 the bulk of the rest were fat or concave. WHAT DID I DO WRONG? Firs time I have used Delo could that be it? Anybody got any ideas. Sorry for the long post. Thanks Fellas --FEDER

RICK LAKE · #2 (**permalink**) 07-10-2005, 08:23 PM

Darryl When you broke the motor in, Did you remove the inner valve springs for the break in period? How big a cam is in this motor? I used EOS from GM for breaking in motors. What delo 400? oil breakin or supplement? What block are you using? What rocker arm kit are you using. You checked the pushrods for clearance through the intake at both ends. Couple of pictures may help. Crower may have a bad set of cams or lifters. I would call and *****. Go to the search in CC and look for cam problems, you may find something there or go to the FE forum and ask them guys. This may have happen before. Thats Hyper lube? What breakin oil are you using? Cut the oil filter apart and check for any metal pieces. You maynot be getting oil splash on the cam lobes. Are you running a full windage tray? Rick Lake

Feder · #3 (**permalink**) 07-10-2005, 09:05 PM

Rick
No I didnt remove the inner spring. They are 340 open I know.
The cam is a 551-565 - 247 - 252 @ 50.
The cam prelube I used was crowers plus I used 2 xtra packs of comp cam lube (red gooey)
8 qts of chevron Delo 15-40 1 qt of racing Hyper lube
I cut the filter and found iron dust (small like dust magnetic)
Block is a new genisis 427 so 4.250x4.250
Complete Rocker Arm Specialties rocker assy.Smith bros PR BALL BALL 3/8" X 5/16".
Ford motorsport windage tray.
Dont know what You mean by checking both ends for adjust.
The motor ran for 1 hr max. Darryl

Feder · #4 (**permalink**) 07-10-2005, 09:19 PM

More pics

RICK LAKE · #5 (**permalink**) 07-10-2005, 09:19 PM

darryl The pushrods fully extended and going through the full lift movement. the rods may hit the manifold bend and not let the lifters spin. The cam could also be soft. Do you have a picture of the damaged parts? are they Blue? The iron is probally the cam or lifters worn out. Go to the FE forum I know that there was a problem with a couple of cams not being treated correctly. Your cam is not that big but I still would have pulled the dampeners for break in. I would have broken the motor in with a 10-30 oil, just my choice. 15w- 40 is a little heavy for me on breakin. THIS is just MY OPINION. Some people get a little crazy on this forum. Rick Lake Ps everybody like different breakin oils wieghts

RICK LAKE · #6 (**permalink**) 07-10-2005, 09:21 PM

Darryl I am not getting any pics

Feder · #7 (**permalink**) 07-10-2005, 09:22 PM

Rick there was no hitting the manifold as I checked that. There was no scuffing on any of the pushrods. Thanks for the replys.

RICK LAKE · #8 (**permalink**) 07-10-2005, 09:32 PM

Darryl Call the cam company and talk to tech. Raise a little hell and see what happens. May not be your fault. See what they say about a 18,000$ motor being damaged and a top machine shop did the machine work. If that doesnot work, ask to talk to the CEO. Nobody like bad press. You wil;l need to send the block back for new bearings and to be rechecked. You might want to let KCR do all the work on assembly and running breakin. Just a thought. I am going to bed. EST time talk to you later Rick

decooney · #9 (**permalink**) 07-10-2005, 09:55 PM

Feder,
It may not be related, but i'm wondering if you purchased the rocker arm assembly new for this motor and was the valvetrain geometry checked in detail before you fired the motor?. I have that same type rocker assy and they sell one for Edelbrock heads and a different set for original style Ford iron heads. I can't see what heads you have there in the pic. i.e. final valvetrain geometry, clearances, binding, etc... just a thought.

I'm interested to see what you find out what the real root cause is with this combination of Genesis block, Crower Cam, and that particulary rocker assembly. Please report your findings. Thanks, and Good Luck.

Brent Mills · #10 (**permalink**) 07-10-2005, 10:49 PM

Feder, I remember you from the show. Bummer to hear about the problems.

I had similar problems a few years back with a local builder and during his breakin, a few lobes went flat. He didn't remove the center springs either, but did the second time around. Keith Craft will probably have some good ideas around this, so I'd contact them.

Good luck man!

Keithc8 · #11 (**permalink**) 07-11-2005, 12:56 AM

Darryl give me a call and we can talk about what you might be able to do. I always remove the inner springs on these flat tappet cams to break them in. I had a flat tappet hydraulic go flat on the dyno the other day. This is why I use so many hydraulic roller camshaft, because I hate the problems that these cams going flat cause. I am sorry that you had that happen with your new short-block. Good luck, Keith

Enginetime · #12 (**permalink**) 07-11-2005, 09:55 AM

Daryl,
The new aggressive flat tappet cams have to be broken in with minimal valve spring pressures. I had several cams fail on the break in on the dyno and now send out my cams to Cam Research Co, Englewood Co. Look at their website and note the cam break in machine they have. For $60.00 your break in issues are gone! Every FE I build has this done...ends changing valve springs and defective cams.
Mark

Feder · #13 (**permalink**) 07-11-2005, 12:54 PM

De Coony The rocker setup I got We baught new from Gary at RAS. The heads are E Brock 60069 CJ. Im sure the ratio is 1.76. After assy I used a pushrod checker it was 10.800 with 2 threads showing out the bottom of the rocker, This with shell lifters
ENGINETIME What a great idea!! wish I had known that. But again havnt had this problem AT ALL until latley with the FE.
I will certainly do that if in fact We go back with the same. We are now looking at a roller. THX Darryl

Excaliber · #14 (**permalink**) 07-11-2005, 01:24 PM

I lost a roller lifter at about 8K miles, I don't like them! I ended up doing a complete over haul and went with a flat tapper. I did remove the inner spring for my initial cam break in and that is likely the difference. Yeah, what a pain in the butt re-installing the inner springs later with the motor in the car. Beats the heck out of loosing a cam though! Roller lifter just don't "live long enough" to suit me. Flat tappet or hydraulic roller is the way to go (and I'm not big on hydraulic).

chrispy · #15 (**permalink**) 07-11-2005, 01:45 PM

Excaliber,

Why is it that the roller cams never work for aftermarket builds? Something that I cannot figure out. Look at the manufactures these days. The late model Mustangs come to mind. You rarely see issues with the rollers in these.

Chris

John A. Simpson · #16 (**permalink**) 07-11-2005, 02:07 PM

I thought Delo was for diesel engines, is there some reason you used it in this application?

Excaliber · #17 (**permalink**) 07-11-2005, 03:21 PM

The main reason SOLID rollers fail is an oiling issue. THAT is being addressed by some current manufacturers of roller lifters, shop carefully to get the latest design.

The roller on the bottom of the lifter has very small roller bearings inside. These bearings starve for oil at lower rpm, relying mostly on "splashed" oil for lubrication. Idle speeds and low rpm cruise kill them. Also an incorrect valve lash (to big) will "hammer" them and unlike the flat tappets it doesn't take much to hammer one into oblivion.

Newer rollers have provision for direct oil pressure feed to the roller bearings. Not ALL blocks are compatible, like original 427 FE side oiler blocks. The "later model service blocks" (427 side oiler) have provision for hydraulic lifters. These are the only blocks I would use without consultation from Gessford or similiar if using roller solids. But you have to be careful with later model "service blocks" due to core shift issues, you need to make sure it IS a "good block".

When Ford went with the roller lifters for the small block they worked out all the details first. Hydrualic rollers are fairly easy to set up for oiling the roller bearings.

Over the years I've got some GREAT information from Club Cobra members. In the case of my roller solid lifters I got some really BAD information suggesting a valve lash WAY to big and "hammering" my rollers unmercifully. Information mostly from a long term member who prides himself on knowing pretty much everything there is to know about motors! So I'm a little more careful what advice I take. The "real builders" like Gessford and Kieth Craft is advice I take seriously. The rest I "filter". Heck I've made mistakes giving "questionable" advice myself!

chrispy · #18 (**permalink**) 07-11-2005, 03:26 PM

Thanks for the info.

Ah, Solid rollers. I can see them failing in a FE block.

Sorry to hear about the bad advice. A costly one no less.

Think I will stick with the solids (non-roller). About 20 times cheaper as well. Plus they sound better.

Chris

Feder · #19 (**permalink**) 07-11-2005, 03:39 PM

Hey thanks for all the replies fella's.
John the reason I used Delo is it still has zinc in it. I read some good threads on the FE forum about it. The oil companys removed the zinc from from car type oil because of the EPA, kinda the same as lead in the gas. From what I understand zinc has a cush effect that is desireable for breakin like lead gave cush for the valve seats, before we all had to get hard seats. Diesels run all day long under extreme loads and go for REALLY long time. Hell sounded good to Me.
Thanks Keith- talked to Him this morning and is ready to help however He can. For the short squirt around the block the back tires spin in proportion to the gas pedal.From 2500 to 3500 in 2nd and 3rd. Its a GODDAMN ROCKET SHIP !!!!
I also talked to Dave Crower He said send the cam and lifters and He will personally make it right. Ill ship them off today and see how things go. Until then its yank the motor and start again.
Darryl

RICK LAKE · #20 (**permalink**) 07-11-2005, 04:51 PM

Darryl Gald you worked it out for the cam problem. If you have a air compressor at home it is easy for you to remove the dampeners for breakin. Pressurize the cylinder. KD make a spring compressor that works fine for doing this. Tap on the top of the valve before you put the valve spring compresser on to loosen the locks for the valve. tighen compressor and use a MAGNET to remove the retainers for the valve. remove the dampener from the inside and reassembly it If you have set the rockers up already for clearance, you should be OK. You would have to talk to George or Keith but alot of us use scrapers and windage trays and this stops the oil from spinning up and hitting the cam and bottom of the lifters. For chevy's they have a tool that puts a .010 groove in the lifter bore to help oiling for the cam and lifter contact patch. I was looking at a spray bar to do the same thing. I have Hydro roller for my next motor but don't see how they are putting oil into the roller bearings. They have a pin hole that sits center of the body and puts oil on the roller wheel. Idle is very tough on any motor with heavy duty valve springs sharp ramps on the cam. Guy get lazy with solids and do'nt keep them adjusted all the time and damage happens. Hydro are the way to go for a street motor. Change the trans ratios or the rear gears to work with the power window of the motor. Rick Lake



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