help on dual quad manifold request

[willyp]

I just picked up a Ford dual quad manifold, c3ae-9425k, supposed to have come off a 1964 Galaxie 427 (unk which one), I have a 428 w/Edelbrock aluminum heads in my ERA & would like to know if this manifold would fit/work w/this engine/head combo? If so what carbs would be the best to use, mainly interested in driveability, car runs very well now w/the single carb, just like how they look w/the 2 carbs. I've tried to check past posts & did searches on the internet but I'm an old Chev guy & just don't have the intricasies of the FE's worked out!, but I'm learnin. Thanks for any info anyone can provide.

[Carnut427]

The intake will work just fine on the 428, as they are both low risers. Holley 0-1850 (600cfm) carbs work well. You'll probably want two: COVER – DIAPHRAGM HOUSING (QUICK CHANGE) Part #20-73 2 x 4 bbl. – with balance tube. Expedites changing of vacuum spring. Page 89 of the Holley Avenger Systems catalog. These replace the standard cover on the vacuum secondary unit, making it easier to change secondary springs while tuning. You also install a piece of vacuum line from one secondary unit to the other (this is what the balance tube is for), allowing the vacuum secondary units to open at the same time as long as they have the same spring in them. On the original dual-quad carbs, the linkage hooked up to different places on the throttle plate (the primary higher than the secondary), allowing the front (primary) carb to open first, and the secondary carb would come in as you pressed the pedal down further. Some run both carbs together, as it's a bit of work to make the standard 1850 carbs work progressively, but it can be done. New original-style carbs are available from Holley if you've got the bucks.
Good Luck,

Dan

[sideoiler10]

Originally Posted by willyp

I just picked up a Ford dual quad manifold, c3ae-9425k, supposed to have come off a 1964 Galaxie 427 (unk which one), I have a 428 w/Edelbrock aluminum heads in my ERA & would like to know if this manifold would fit/work w/this engine/head combo? If so what carbs would be the best to use, mainly interested in driveability, car runs very well now w/the single carb, just like how they look w/the 2 carbs. I've tried to check past posts & did searches on the internet but I'm an old Chev guy & just don't have the intricasies of the FE's worked out!, but I'm learnin. Thanks for any info anyone can provide.

I ordered my dual quads from Carl's Ford Parts. They are the 600's that came out on the originals and they are the new re-issue's from Holley that have the correct Ford part numbers and correct date codes as the originals. I paid $895 for the set. They were flow tested and ready to go right out of the box. I did change the secondary vacumn springs to the white ones (lightest pressure). With the Stelling/Hellings air cleaners and K&N filters they do look GOOD! I'm still tinkering a little with the linkage. There are no flat spots under acceleration, but I'm not sure it runs better than the single larger 4V. Probably need to put it on a dyno and work on the jetting, etc.

Good luck, Bob

[My427stang]

That intake is a low riser and the Edel heads are medium risers not low riser as said above.

They will work, but you'll have some port mismatch on the bottom of the port. Not life threatening LOL but not ideal for airflow. How much HP will it cost? not a alot, but it is a mismatch

I wouldnt be afraid to run it though

[Carnut427]

Edelbrock makes both low riser and medium riser heads:

Performer RPM FE for 390-428 Cobra Jet:
Chamber Size 72cc Bare (single) #60059 Complete (single) #60069

Performer RPM FE for 390 (NHRA-accepted for Stock and Super Stock):
Chamber Size: 72cc Bare (single): #60057

Performer RPM FE for 428 (NHRA-accepted for Stock and Super Stock):
Chamber Size: 72cc Bare (single): #60058

Performer RPM FE for 427 Low-Riser/Medium-Riser:
Chamber Size 76cc Bare (single) #60089 Complete (single) #60079

[My427stang]

I could be wrong, but I am 99% sure they all run the med riser port despite being "usable" on a low riser. Interesting reference though, any details on port size from your source?

I have never seen any Edelbrock head with anything other than the med riser port, and each of the part numbers above shows the same 170 cc intake port volume, so hard to believe any one of those have the taller early port without changing volume

(unfortunately they dont show intake port dimensions on Summit, thats where I looked for a quick reference)

The intake will still work fine, just a little port mismatch, thats all

[Carnut427]

I got the info I posted from Edelbrock's site. FE heads came with 2 different port sizes in their low risers; don't confuse the short low riser port with medium riser ports, although both will, as you say, cause a mismatch, but will work. Cobra Jets and 427 low riser heads both used the tall low riser ports; 390s came with both tall and short ports. The Edelbrock 427 heads aren't actually medium risers, as the combustion chambers are smaller, which is a good thing. More info, if interested, can obviously be acquired from Edelbrock.
Good Luck,

Dan

[My427stang]

I do know a bit about Edel heads, the info you are posting just surprised me.

I personally own Edelbrock 428 heads on (72 cc / dual exhaust bolt pattern) and run them on my 489, and have had my hands on or installed 3 other sets in the past year on FEs alone. Edelbrock intake ports ARE dimensionally med risers, but like I said if there is a type of Edelbrocks I havent seen (one that came out recently), I will accept it, but I havent seen one yet that isnt designed around a med riser port and for reference the 1247 Felpro gasket size (med riser).

I also went looking before I originally posted, and after, and still havent found any documentation of a different Edelbrock intake port. Quite the opposite actually, everywhere I look I dont see any indication of any port options and I have never seen it. Matter of fact, their 76 cc says low/med riser it is in fact their original head that they came out with and that does have med riser port location. I think they call it a low riser because all low riser intakes will physically bolt up to a med riser. The reverse is not always true, some med riser intakes wont seal at the bottom of the port with a factory low riser head

Although you are right, original med risers have a machined combustion chamber, the port location and size is what makes it a med riser "port" and thats what applies here to his intake manifold choice. If you have something you can link here to show a different intake port on the various Edel heads, I'd be interested, but on Edels site all I found was what I posted originally, every Edel version has a 170cc intake port and uses the same gasket. Although that doesnt prove its the exact same intake port, that with my experience makes me yearn for something more for proof. If there are different ports, I'd like to get some on a flow bench to see the differences.

BTW I am not saying the Edels are 100% copies of a Ford med riser head, they just have med riser intake port location and size (unless of course, there is some "new" Edelbrock head that I have missed) at the gasket, they actually are dimensionally different through the port and bowl area, and thats a good thing too

Original Ford intake ports come in 4 designs not counting SOHC and TP (just the rectangulars ones)

1 - Low riser (original taller but less efficient port)
2 - med riser (1247 gasket, raised port)
3 - high riser
4 - emissions port / 390GT / 70's truck heads (1967 on, C7AE-A, C8AE-H,D2) located on the head like a med riser port but slightly narrower. Exhaust port is later design I think thats what you refer to as the "short low riser" Generally, we dont refer to those as low risers but as GT, or emissions heads

Like I said, I am not sure what you exactly mean, but I have not seen one Edelbrock head that didnt use the med riser style intake port. I am in no way "calling you out" but if there is a new head, I am very interested in seeing what it does, and I havent seen any of the Edels with any difference in intake port design, the only differences I see are changes in: chamber, exhaust bolt holes, and valve size

I will call the Edel techs and post back, I have a contact in the R&D area that I used when we did some changes on my RPM intake. I'll let you know what he says. Regardless, the intake will work, it just wont be a perfect port match

I'll also add, you "could" port match it, but cutting on the floor and blending to the short side turn actually could decrease flow, I wouldnt recommend it. The med riser design is a better port, even when coupled to the mismatch of a low riser dual quad

[Carnut427]

I'm not trying to be undiplomatic myself; it's easy to "read" things into something written that wasn't meant; I've done it, everybody does at one time or another. I appreciate your calmness in our discussion.
What I call a "short" low riser port is what you call an "emissions" port; we're both talking about the intake ports. The exhaust port locations seem to float around a bit, I never could figure those out.
I mentioned going to the Edelbrock site only because I don't want to do research for someone who can do their own; I'll do what I have to to back up what I say, but only if I think it's worth my trouble...call me lazy.
Perhaps you're right, all Edelbrock heads may be medium riser in size & location; I really don't know, all I go by is what I read, and my Edelbrocks are ported 427 models, so I can't honestly say what their original size was. It just seems to me that if Edelbrock claims it makes a "Cobra Jet" head that's legal for stock & super stock it would have the tall port; however, it could still be legal with short (medium riser or otherwise) ports, as long as they don't exceed the original Cobra Jet volume.
In closing, perhaps you're right, I can't honestly say, and I'm too lazy to check into it further. If someone else wants to, I'd be interested in any fresh knowledge.

Dan

[My427stang]

LOL Your lazy comments made me laugh.....why might you ask?

Because instead of researching I asked my FE Forum buddies LOL Welcome to the lazy club, we are the first two members

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...+on+Edel+heads

BTW I didnt mean to infer you werent diplomatic, I just was trying to say "I think know what I am talking about" without sounding like a know it all. A somewhat unsuccessful attempt at me trying to be polite.

All is well

[Carnut427]

WHAT'S THIS? PEACEFUL COEXISTANCE ON CLUB COBRA???

I must've made a wrong turn somewhere...

Dan

[willyp]

Wow!, thought I had learned some but the FE's are really confusing, thanks much for all the info provided so far, I checked Carl's parts as listed above & found they have complete sets, manifold, carbs, log & linkage, they list the Blue Thunder medium rise w/BJ-BK 600 carbs & a Cobra C5ae-e Ford manifold w/BJ-BK carbs, would these be a better match for my heads than the low rise manifold I have?, also the BJ-BK carbs I assume are the new "Ford" carbs as described above, are these progressive? & would the linkage set that comes w/these match up with the throttle arm from the ERA? I'm asking here as I've called Carl's a number of times & never received an answer or a call back! I want to go to the Dual setup & can off set some of the cost by selling the single system that's on the car after the swap & if the Blue Thunder or Cobra manifold is a better match for my car I can sell the earlier dual manifold I have now, making the swap & having the same performance as the single carb would be acceptable but if the mismatch of the low-rise versus the medium-rise would cost some I'd rather go the other way. Again thanks for all the info so far, I've been watching all the answers/info provided & trying to do some "checking" on my own & I still have a LOT to learn LOL!!

[mr0077]

The Ford factory (or reproduction) 2x4 linkage will work with the ERA throttle linkage, with some minor adjustment of the long rod that goes right now to your single carb linkage...it needs to be shortened about one inch if I recall.
I had dual 390 CFM carbs on mine, went to dual 600's. Because of the small size, I had the 390 carb throttles set up to be synchronized (open and go to WOT simultaneously), and it worked great until it ran out of air. I tried the 600's synchronized but I thought the driveability was not as good under light throttle use as the progressive setup, so I have the 600's set up to be progressive (one primary opens to about 40% throttle before the other primary opens, and both primaries hit WOT at same time).

[Excaliber]

I have original iron high riser heads and at one point was considering if alloy E-Brock heads were available that would fit my high riser 2X4 intake. Couldn't find anything, but then again, maybe I was just to 'lazy' to look hard enough.

High Riser heads do not have the exhaust crossover typical of the other FE heads, not to mention MONSTER intake ports. It was tough finding gaskets for the intake! Which fits ONLY High Riser heads...

[Carnut427]

The low riser intake is a match for 428 Cobra Jet heads, but we don't know what size ports your Edelbrock heads have. Your best bet is to call, email or fly to Edelbrock, tell them the part or casting number of your heads, and ask them what size the intake ports are. Either that or pull your intake and measure. I did some research (yes, lazy me!) and here are the port sizes listed by gasket manufacturers; the first three are Felpro's sizes, and the High Riser is from Mr. Gasket. Note that actual port sizes will probably be just a bit smaller. You can put a Medium Riser intake on any head with the possible exception of the High Riser. It's better to have a smaller intake port going into a larger head than the other way around. As a matter of fact, a lot of engines come from the factory this way. If you have enough metal, you can port match them for a better fit if you wish. The carbs are mounted higher on the Medium Riser intake, giving a better shot to the valve, increasing horsepower. Yes, the BJ/BK carbs are progressive.

"Short" Low Riser port 2.10 in. x 1.40 in.

"Tall" Low Riser port 2.34 in. x 1.40 in.

Medium Riser, 2.22 in. x 1.40 in.

Ernie's "Tall and Terrible" High Riser, 2.90 in. x 1.50 in.

[Clois Harlan]

I bought my aluminium heads several years ago but I had done considerable research before I decided on my Medium Riser heads. I spoke with the Edelbrock rep when he was in town during the Hot Rod Power Tour a few years ago and he told me straight up that Edelbrock sold two FE heads and that one was better suited for for a low riser intake. This is off the cuff but I think the part numbers are 6005 (more suited for low riser intake) and 6006 (considered a best match for Medium Riser Intake).

Good luck with your discussion guys. As far as carbs don't even think about the Edelbrock 600's because I tried them and I could not get them leaned out enough to keep from choking everyone around me not to mention they would flood out during hard cornering or stopping. Go with the Holley 600 series.


Clois