Solid Roller vs. Hyd. Roller - Pros/Cons?

[Jamo]

hi-tec cobra

How thick is your wallet?

Me, I don't scrimp...anywhere. You can read threads and the same brands keep popping up. I allowed my engine builder, Joe Boghosian, who is extremely old school and has been building motors for 50 years (everything from Andretti's 69 Indy winner to drag boats to flatheads to Offys to Dick Smith's motors since #198 first started running) to build it his way.

The one thing I chose? That phuking solid roller.

Many of the things he chose were due to long-time relationships he had with suppliers over the past half century. For assample, when he explained what crank he chose, he referred to "one of Hank's" which I later learned meant a Velasco. Some folks use Scats or other brands. My Velasco is very likely overkill, but it's not just the brand...it's what the builder does to it.

Let's key in on the crank a moment. Joe had "Hank" scribe some reverse mini-trenches at the back of the crank...which help draw oil away from the critical rear main area. This is something George Anderson (an FE god from Hastings, Nebraska) also says is critical...and George ("Jorge") builds enough FEs that he started making Velasco do it on a regular basis.

Another item concerning the same issue...the back of the Shelby block has a couple of little drain holes for taking oil away from the same rear main area. Joe, George, Mike LeFevre and others go right after that area and enlarge them or reshape them. In Joe's case...he simply makes them into a single rectangular galley of sorts. So, between that and the scribbed lines on the crank...the rear main area is having oil drained away from it. I think Mike said Shelby has since opened up that area anyway.

With regard to cams...Joe happened to deal with Clay Smith for decades and it was a custom grind. What was most surprizing to me was that he didn't go with Isky, despite their decades long poker rallies. Blood goes so far. He tied that in with Comp Cams roller lifters...again, his choice. Generally speaking (and someone said it here), it is hard to fault staying with a single brand of cam, lifters, etc. since they are designed to work together.

Other stuff? T&D is muy goodo for the top end, C-P makes nice pistons, Manley rods are a mainstay, Melling hi-volume pumps, March pulleys, Aviad pans, MSD, etc. etc. Everyone has their own opinions, and there are (thankfully) lots of alternatives. If you're using a builder...as was said earlier on this thread....meet with him, talk to him and let him know what you are REALLY going to do with the car. And then let the builder match up the stuff that matches your wallet/with your use/with his experience.

Either flat tappet or hydraulic roller IMO.

[Jamo]

Barry...great! Glad the steel gear worked for you friend...most of the folks who build engines around here would differ unless Mr. Brown has some new fitment...a hardened steel cam gear, but hey...what the he!!. If it's something new...than that's what I'm talking about when I kept referring to the past year or so. I've heard the same thing about the poly gears. But a few thousand miles is a bit shy of reaching a comfort level for me personally...again, test cases are expensive. As for your success with not having the bronze gears go bye-bye, cool. Like I said, my friend had similar success and he was never light on the gas with his FE-ERA. But I dare say, the folks who have had problems do outnumber those who do not. I s'pose someone could just get in the habit of pulling the distributor at each oil change.

I think the thing about the needle bearings on solids is simply the fact they rely on the splash, versus dedicated oiling/cooling with hydraulic setups. Once folks learn to blip the throttle and keep things wet...it's workable. I never had a problem with that once I understood the need to treat it differently...like I said, most folks like blipping the throttle.

Yup...the Chevy pin is a no-brainer.

[RodKnock]

How much is your budget? Jamo's engine sounds like a $25,000-$35,000 engine. Certainly there's no scrimping there with Velasco cranks and T&D roller rockers. Oliver, Lunati, Carillo, Callies, Crower are other names that make high dollar cranks and rods too. Venolia pistons, Jessel rockers, etc. The list of high quality parts can go on forever. Budget will be the determining factor.

[Excaliber]

While I built my own engine,I pretty much followed Jamo's advice on how to spec it. I talked extensivly with Gessford Machine, George and Neal (his main engine man). I told them what I wanted to do with the car, they made recommendations on the parts and specs and I bought ALL my parts from them! While you take the advice and then shop around for the best price, you risk loosing the valuable expertise and 'tips' that come along with installing said parts.

Working closely with your builder, machinist and parts supplier is a key element. Treat them with respect, DON'T start second guessing them or trying to find cheaper parts here and there. I went to THREE different machine shops before I found a guy I could really talk to and feel comfortable with. George said I should do such and such to the block, the machinist was 'concerned' that advice didn't sound right. I told him who Gessford was and that we WOULD do it the George way. He agreed, no problems. Another machine shop might have blown off the suggestions.

Over 4000 miles now on my motor, runs superb, George nailed the specs perfectly.

[hi-tech cobra]

My budget is limited, but I will not skimp on the critical stuff. Here is what I have in mind (feel free to knock any of my choices or add to the list things I forgot - this is off the top of my head):
Pond Alum block
Kieth Craft billet stroker kit
CC hydraulic rollers
CC push rods
Edelbrock Alum heads
Edelbrock RPM Performer intake
Proform or Quickfuel 850 carb
Edelbrock water pump
T&D rocker system
MSD Distributor (because the car is already wired with 6AL, unless someone else offers plug and play with the 6AL box)
Aviad, Canton or Armando pan (depending on how much $ is left)
Lakewood blow proof bellhousing
Tremec TKO
26 spline clutch...dunno?
Original style pulleys...dunno

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by hi-tech cobra

My budget is limited, but I will not skimp on the critical stuff...

CC hydraulic rollers

So I guess the ol' solid lifter cam just didn't make the cut, heh?

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

Every new car and million mile semi in the country has rollers in the lifters.

The lobes on new car cams are almost round compared to a performance grind for an FE.Spring pressures are much,MUCH lighter in a new car engine also.Everything in the new car engine was designed as a package.The roller cam is being retro-fitted in our case-and it doesn't always work in every application.

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by hi-tech cobra

My budget is limited, but I will not skimp on the critical stuff. Here is what I have in mind (feel free to knock any of my choices or add to the list things I forgot - this is off the top of my head):
Pond Alum block
Kieth Craft billet stroker kit
CC hydraulic rollers
CC push rods
Edelbrock Alum heads
Edelbrock RPM Performer intake
Proform or Quickfuel 850 carb
Edelbrock water pump
T&D rocker system
MSD Distributor (because the car is already wired with 6AL, unless someone else offers plug and play with the 6AL box)
Aviad, Canton or Armando pan (depending on how much $ is left)
Lakewood blow proof bellhousing
Tremec TKO
26 spline clutch...dunno?
Original style pulleys...dunno

Sounds like a good list of parts and don't think I'd quibble with much. However, I will make this observation, despite the desire to overbuild and buy the best of everything, if you are on a budget you should ask yourself how are you really going to be driving the car? If you are regularly going to be turning over 5k-6k rpm and expect 550-600+ hp, maybe you do need a billet crank and T&D rockers. However, if you are going to be driving in the more "normal" street rpm ranges, a new Scat cast crank and Erson rockers will be more than sufficient for the job and will save you a lot of $$. Not saying that it is not worth having a billet crank and T&D rockers if budget is no concern, but if you are on a budget, cost/benefit may not make sense if you are not going to push the car to the extremes. JMO.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Chaplin

if you are going to be driving in the more "normal" street rpm ranges, a new Scat cast crank and Erson rockers will be more than sufficient for the job and will save you a lot of $$.

Good advice. I have the SCAT 4.125" stroker and the Ersons in my FE. Both will serve you well and save you money. If you're not careful, you might go broke building this engine.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Jamo

hi-tec cobra

How thick is your wallet?

Me, I don't scrimp...anywhere. You can read threads and the same brands keep popping up. I allowed my engine builder, Joe Boghosian, who is extremely old school and has been building motors for 50 years (everything from Andretti's 69 Indy winner to drag boats to flatheads to Offys to Dick Smith's motors since #198 first started running) to build it his way.

The one thing I chose? That phuking solid roller.

Many of the things he chose were due to long-time relationships he had with suppliers over the past half century. For assample, when he explained what crank he chose, he referred to "one of Hank's" which I later learned meant a Velasco. Some folks use Scats or other brands. My Velasco is very likely overkill, but it's not just the brand...it's what the builder does to it.

Let's key in on the crank a moment. Joe had "Hank" scribe some reverse mini-trenches at the back of the crank...which help draw oil away from the critical rear main area. This is something George Anderson (an FE god from Hastings, Nebraska) also says is critical...and George ("Jorge") builds enough FEs that he started making Velasco do it on a regular basis.

Another item concerning the same issue...the back of the Shelby block has a couple of little drain holes for taking oil away from the same rear main area. Joe, George, Mike LeFevre and others go right after that area and enlarge them or reshape them. In Joe's case...he simply makes them into a single rectangular galley of sorts. So, between that and the scribbed lines on the crank...the rear main area is having oil drained away from it. I think Mike said Shelby has since opened up that area anyway.

With regard to cams...Joe happened to deal with Clay Smith for decades and it was a custom grind. What was most surprizing to me was that he didn't go with Isky, despite their decades long poker rallies. Blood goes so far. He tied that in with Comp Cams roller lifters...again, his choice. Generally speaking (and someone said it here), it is hard to fault staying with a single brand of cam, lifters, etc. since they are designed to work together.

Other stuff? T&D is muy goodo for the top end, C-P makes nice pistons, Manley rods are a mainstay, Melling hi-volume pumps, March pulleys, Aviad pans, MSD, etc. etc. Everyone has their own opinions, and there are (thankfully) lots of alternatives. If you're using a builder...as was said earlier on this thread....meet with him, talk to him and let him know what you are REALLY going to do with the car. And then let the builder match up the stuff that matches your wallet/with your use/with his experience.

Either flat tappet or hydraulic roller IMO.

Jamo-it seems our engines have a bit in common.
My builder (Jack Peloquin*)called Velasco and wouldn't ya know it-he had a Side-oiler crank sitting on the shelf.So i hauled a$$ down to Velasco to pick it up.It took me a little longer than expected as i had to repetitively pick my jaw up off the floor as i was looking at a who's who in drag racing on the office walls.Pictures of everyone from Garlits to Muldowney to Sox & Martin to Grumpy( i could go on forever)It was like a museum for anyone who was anyone.
My only regret was that i didn't have the patience for them to grind me a stroker crank.It would have been another 6 months but it would have been worth it.
I was 8 hours from calling Shelby and ordering an aluminum block.At the 11th hour Jack called and siad he found a SR Sideoiler that had NEVER been apart.$1000 later i had a block that cleaned up at 17 over.
Next came Cunningham rods,Arias pistons,solid flat-tappet Clay Smith cam,FPP valve train gear,Performer RPM,E-heads ported by Dralle,Canton pan,MSD igntion & a Braswell carb.

Jack was a So.Cal FE builder who earned his reputation by making FEs live in off-shore racing applications.He is now "retired",living in Santa Maria,Ca.Now he does the builds out of his house.And he also has maintained a relationship with Velasco and knew Clay Smith for 50+ years.I see a pattern........

[hi-tech cobra]

patrickt,

I wouldn't mind doing the solid lifters if the break in issue had not reared it's ugly head. I had a 427so (solid lifter) in a Unique car 10 years ago. I did not mind pulling the valve covers every now and then. The engine builder broke the cam in properly but that's the only thing he did right. What he did wrong - misaligned rockers/pushrods/intake leading to massive valve train failure. Input shaft on toploader too long, pushed the crank ate up the bearings, etc.

The fact is I want to build this motor. I might have KC do the shortblock. My expertise does not include running in a solid lifter motor. If someone near Jacksonville, FL knows how to do it and wants to help then I might reconsider.

[RodKnock]

Good advice from Chaplin. If I remember correctly, the T&D's cost an extra $300 plus another $400 +/- for the extra work on the Edelbrock heads. Instead of a billet crank, why not one of those new 4340 steel cranks as a middle alternative. Also, what type of timing chain? You might want to spend $100-$200 extra on a billet timing chain with a Torrington bearing. As Jamo would say, a timing chain is "muy importante."

[Barry_R]

Crane steel gears
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...&lvl=3&prt=113

I suppose I should apologize for my success with the solid rollers on the street. I certainly would not want to lead anybody astray.

[69boss429]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

Crane steel gears
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...&lvl=3&prt=113

I suppose I should apologize for my success with the solid rollers on the street. I certainly would not want to lead anybody astray.

No need for an apology,the miles I drove with the solid roller were a total blast!
Unbelievable throttle response and power band.
Call me a wuss,but maintenance sucks.Cuts into driving time !
6000 rpm 540 hp,max torque at 5500 was 486 ft lb.
More than enough for some of us,way to much for most.
I have considered a Boss 429 Cobra build for the sheer WOW effect,but a new Boss 302 block with AFR 205's and a hyd roller will no doubt get me in enough trouble.

[Tom Wells]

Barry,

I suppose I should apologize

No apology needed.

Having said that, I asked how many trouble-free street miles you accumulated on the original set of solid rollers over the ten year span; I read your response twice and couldn't find that number. Did I miss it?

Tom

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

Crane steel gears
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...&lvl=3&prt=113

I suppose I should apologize for my success with the solid rollers on the street. I certainly would not want to lead anybody astray.

Bullsh!t...that's what this forum and others at this site are for...to get everyone's experience and views out there for consideration. Again, a friend of mine had the same success, so you weren't alone. Damn good link...much appreciated.

[Barry_R]

Car has no odometer - the place it and the speedo used to live are now filled with a big ol' tach..

I did - and do - put a LOT of driving time on that car over the ten years in question. I tried to say it in a roundabout way - but the bracket racing alone was something over 1000 documented passes, along with innumerable Friday and Saturday night activities, plus the normal car shows, general cruising around, the annual Woodward debacle and 2 hour parade, the Hot Rod events, etc, etc.

This is not a trailer queen by any stretch - I may be the only guy to wear out a 3.5" diameter to the bumper exhaust system - its rusting through at the tailpipe welds like an old Buick wagon.... I've used up a bunch of stuff over the years - not broke - just plain wore out.

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Bullsh!t...that's what this forum and others at this site are for...to get everyone's experience and views out there for consideration. Again, a friend of mine had the same success, so you weren't alone. Damn good link...much appreciated.

I posted the same link 2 pages back. It hasn't gotten any better since I posted it

[hi-tech cobra]

Do the Scat cranks have problems because they don't have the oil groves to channel the oil away from the main seals like the Velasco cranks do?

Regarding the T&D rockers, CC hydr. rollers, and Lakewood bellhousing. I'm trying to use these brands because a) I have a credit with T&D, b) I have a credit with CompCams, c) I can return my new sbf lakewood bellhousing to Jeg's and get the FE bellhousing.

[xracerbob]

I would return the sbf Lakewood and get a Quicktime bellhousing instead. Much nicer piece. I would use the Jegs credit for nice pulleys or other go fast stuff.

http://www.quicktimeinc.com/products.html