FE Experts needed possible rebuild 427 SO

[priobe]

Hello all,

I wanted to get your take on a possible rebuild. Here are the parts which I currently have:

- Edlebrock Heads ( already ported and polished)
Valves SS. intake 2.190 / 1.730 Exhaust
- Dove Rockers
Will change- Solid Roller Cam shaft 245 intake / 250 exhaust @ 50
Valve Lift 660 665
- Block 427 1965 Side Oiler
- Crank $427 Steel Crank (C9AE-A-6303-A) Will need to get bearings
Rods NASCAR (C-7 OEA) 0.080 inch wider
- JE Pistons
Compression 9.5:1
- Oil Pump from Precision Oil Pump (blue printed)
- MSD Dist with 6AL


The motor is currently assembled and running pretty good. The reason for the possible rebuild is because the oil pressure seems too low at idle 10-15 psi. The oil pressure does jump up off of idle to about 45-60 and increases to 70 max. Another factor is that a leakdown test was performed resulting in a 26 % leakdown.

I am still in the build process, right before I send the body out to get painted. I really would not want torebuild the motor later when the body is already painted.

Since I am thinking of going back in I will change the cam because the motor idles very smooth. I understand that Webers have this effect on motors but this cam seems like it is for more HP in higher RPM range. Also, I am undecided on the crankshaft and rods. I have heard that it is hard to find those bearings but my engine builder say" its not a problem.


What to do ?



I am thinking that the clearances are too loose in the bottom end.

[fostereast]

I would change the Nascar rods. (heavy, obsolete, difficult to get bearings.)
What Edelbrock heads do you have?
Intake?, Carb?
Also, the cam may be a little to long in duration.
What is your goal with the engine?

[priobe]

Rpm Fe 76 Cc

[priobe]

Is that crank and rods worth anything????

[RICK LAKE]

Priobe What are you looking for??? Race motor, street motor, something in the middle?? Lets start with about how much HP and torque are you wanting?? What are you going to do with the car? Show and shine, 1/4 drag race, Roadracing, Street driving, Autocross, High speed mile races?? The best thing a can tell you without more info is STROKER your motor to a 452 or better 482. Barry R sells a great stroker kit that is almost a straight drop in. A 10.5 compression with your heads. Sell the Nascar parts. The cam you have is too big for your motor and the low compression you are running. IMO you are not running enought oil pressure. I don't know what the clearances are on the mains and rods but there are only a couple of sizes available for nascar rods. You maybe able to use cleveland or windsor bearings with some machine work to the rods. IMO I would be running a 100 lb spring in the oil pump. Limiters to the rockers in the .070-.090" oriface range. If you have 25% leakdown you need to find out where all that air is going to. Piston rings not sealing, cylinder bores out of round, Valves not sealing in the heads to valve seats. You should find out this problem first before rebuilding the motor. Has this block been bored or is it a standard bore?? If you are running 48mm webers, the flow runs out at about 6,700 rpm with a 427 motor. It will be a little less with a stroker. If you put the right parts together for a certain rpm range you will get morepower and a better running motor. Match the parts. Exhaust, you can be loosing 20-50HP in this alone. Something to look into. Need answer for the first 4 questions before trying to give you info on a motor that would best work. Ps. Preoiler for your car. Accusump works great as a peroiler before starting the motor everytime. 80% of wear on a motors bearings are from startup. IMO I would also go to the ERSON full roller rocker setup. Have you any thought on an Aluminium block? Another 80 lbs off the front of the car would be nice. You could also run a hydro roller cam and lifters and have less maintainance. KCR sells some go cams for FI and webers. I have one for my 498 motor and 58mm TWMs. Talk to Keith about what he would recommend. May sure your machinist knows the different between FE motors with it's needs and wants and chevy motors. The days of the .003" on rods and mains are gone due to the changes in oil. IMO Rick L.

[patrickt]

... and are all of your cylinders uniformly running a 26% loss? Or just one, or some, of them?

[priobe]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

Priobe What are you looking for??? Race motor, street motor, something in the middle?? Lets start with about how much HP and torque are you wanting?? What are you going to do with the car? Show and shine, 1/4 drag race, Roadracing, Street driving, Autocross, High speed mile races??

1. What are you looking for??? Race motor, street motor, something in the middle??
I am looking for something in the middle around 550 - 600 closer to 600 HP

2. What are you going to do with the car? Show and shine, 1/4 drag race, Roadracing, Street driving, Autocross, High speed mile races??

Show and shine street driving, once and awhile take to drag strip.


I really dont want to dump alot of money again into the motor if I dont have to. If I could make up the cost of with the NASCAR stuff then I will stroke it.

I am currently running a 100 # spring.

The leakdown test was done at a shop and I am not sure if it is all cylinders and where the leak is.

The motor is still fairly new with only 500 miles on it if that.

I am not happy with cam so I already mentioned that I want it out.

[CHANMADD]

If you are still building the car its probably a get bet that you do not have any miles on the motor. Right???..... It takes a little while for the rings to bed in and give you a good seal, and that oil pressure looks good to me, as long as it jumps as soon as you jazz the throttle.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by priobe

The reason for the possible rebuild is because the oil pressure seems too low at idle 10-15 psi. The oil pressure does jump up off of idle to about 45-60 and increases to 70 max...

There is absolutely, postively, no doubt about it, nothing wrong with those oil pressure numbers for an FE.

[priobe]

How about the leakdown test of 26 %

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by priobe

How about the leakdown test of 26 %

That is a little bit high, even for a large CID engine. When you pressurize the cylinder and stick your ear by the oil filler cap hole can you hear
any sort of air noise? How about at your sidepipes? And at your stacks? With a loss of 26% you should hear the air leaking somewhere, and there's only so many places it can go.

[priobe]

Chanmadd,

Thats what the guy at the shop said, except for the oil pressure. He also told me that he will replace the oil with straight 50 and cut open the filters to make a determination.

I am the one jumping the gun with the rebuild.

I am expect the worst and hoping for the best

[Ibr8k4vetts]

I will bet they have the wrong bottom end bearings in it and I would run about 10.5 to 1 on compression depending on the cam.

[priobe]

Ibr8k4vetts,

Do you have the part number of the bearing I need or brand or even place to buy them.

The this is a different shop working on the car now.

[patrickt]

Priobe, your oil pressure numbers are fine. I've seen dozens of well built FEs and those numbers are nothing to worry about. Did you know that from the factory the oil pressure idiot light didn't come on with FEs until they hit 4 lbs? So long as your pressure comes up when you blip the throttle, and you're getting upwards of 50 (and you're all they way to 70), your pressure is not an issue. You need to know more about the leak down tests though. That's a test you can do in your own garage and it may very well help you pin down some of your problems.

[Ibr8k4vetts]

Originally Posted by priobe

Ibr8k4vetts,

Do you have the part number of the bearing I need or brand or even place to buy them.

The this is a different shop working on the car now.

Sorry I don't, but I know there are Two sizes that are for the FE One is for race and is looser then the street bearing. You should be OK with what you have but it made me nerves on mine.

[priobe]

patrickt,

Thanks for the info on the oil pressure. That makes me feel a whole lot better.

As for the leakdown test I will call him tomorrow to find out more specifics about this.

As for the cam, do you feel that it is good or should I change it?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by priobe

patrickt,

Thanks for the info on the oil pressure. That makes me feel a whole lot better.

As for the leakdown test I will call him tomorrow to find out more specifics about this.

As for the cam, do you feel that it is good or should I change it?

I recall from previous posts that you were having problems with your Webers, a miss at 3500 or something like that, and that you felt your cam was not the best choice. Can you give us an overall description of just how your engine runs, idles, pulls at different rpms, etc.? You only have 500 miles on your engine -- that's brand-spanking-new. Nevertheless, a 26% loss on the leakdown is something that requires further investigation. You generally like to see the cylinders hold something in the 90's (when you pressurize them to 100psi); a big FE, maybe in the 80's. Going all the way down to the 70's though raises an eyebrow. I'd like to see the leakdown for all 8 cylinders. If six are high and two adjoining cylinders are low, that tells you something. Likewise if the kid tells you "Man I could hear air whistling out the passenger sidepipe when I did #2 and #4, but all the others did well." You get the idea.

[RICK LAKE]

Priobe You are making this easier. The motor is new with 500 miles. Nothing is seated yet. The piston rings are not worn in, the valve seat and valves are not broken in to seat. You didn't say what temp the motor is running at. The motor is tight to start. I don't agree with Pat on the oil pressure at idle. I just put a stroker kit in my Shelby block 482. I am using the same pump and oil on the new parts. The new bottom end is tight but I still have 30-35 psi at idle, 850 rpm and goes to 80 before 2,500 rpm. This is a HVHP pump from Mellings. Go to the FE forum and ask about the rod and main bearings there. Barry R, John V, or a couple of the others are involved with FE motor since the 60's. If your oil gauge is reading correct at idle IMO you will pound out the bottom end bearings. Call Barry R and ask what a custom set of pistons cost for the rods and crank you have. Tell him the cc on the heads. Get the compression up to 10 1/2 with the aluminium heads. Next look for a cam in the .600" lift. Look for a power range from 2,700rpm to 6,200rpm. A 112 LSA with a -2 cam retard after the cam is installed. Some cams come with a 4degree retard built into them. As for the idiot oil lights coming on at 4-10 psi, If you see this light the party is WAY OVER. What oil are you running and is there any additives? 600HP is not easy to hit, I am talking REAL NUMBERS with a streetable 427 motor. My 482 motor is new and I hope to get it on the dyno in April. On dynosim and Dyno 2000 I am looking at 510 HP and 580 torque at the crank not RWHP.My FI system may cost me about 8-10hp and 5-8ft of torque over a good carb. My cam is a 587-607 roller. great power from 2,500 to 6,000 rpm with a 6,500 rev limiter. The ford number for the nascar rod bearing is C9AX-6211E or F. You could try Rich Kirk or H&M for the correct bearings. I have heard they are very hard to fine. There are also questions about the nascar crank being crossdrilled and causing alot more oil pressure drop in the motor. I will catch you later Rick L.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

I don't agree with Pat on the oil pressure at idle...

That's what makes this forum fun.

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

Go to the FE forum and ask...

... and you might find this post on oil pressure at 332-428 Ford FE Engine Forum

The Ford shop manual 1970 (has Boss 02/429/428cj/scj/429cj/scj) great ref. materia ... correct psi is 25-60 lbs @2000rpm HOT...minimun psi is 6lbs at 400 rpm , lifter collapse, valve train noise. Bearing clearances of .0025/.003 will result in 10-15 lbs at hot idle, and 65lbs at 2000...