Computer That Actually Works ?
 

I've been keeping my ears open for the last few years about stacked F/I systems.

Are there any company's computer that actually works well without problems ?
It seems like even the system from FAST has it's glitches. Including the newer "Self Learn" computers. With todays F/I technology in modern cars , you would think the aftermarket systems would work as well, if not better.

I have a friend that does perfect high end restorations. Last year he built himself a 65 Mustang Fastback. He put the Edelbrock FI system on his 347. He said it was a big mistake. After buying the system he had to pay another $800 for custom programming. It is better but still not right. He is staying with carbs in the future.

check will Dale at Eight Stack Injection- home


Dwight

http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/d...599resized.jpg

Only O.E.M computers work almost perfect, anything after market usually is hit or miss.

I've heard great things about Holley's Dominator EFI.

I used a Motec M800 and am completely happy with what it can do for my 800hp supercharged street engine.

I just have the stock Ford computer with an SCT chip and have had no problems with the tune for 18,000 miles. I'm running a Dart block 331 with twin turbos and electronic boost controller. Cheers.

I have investigated this before and read many things out there, books, systems and otherwise. I think I remember reading somewhere that an OEM application took the average car developer 2 years to calculate everything needed for a near perfect EFI system, and even then, there are always compromises. This is a roomful of computer analyists and engineers from the largest auto companies in the world. Some of this analysis could be grandfathered up from other engines, but the point is it is done and the calculations are taken from real driving situations.

Taking that into consideration, how can an off-the-shelf self learning system compete or achieve near the same results? I serisouly doubt this was done even to half the degree.

Do I think a bolt on system would work? Well, describe what you mean as working. Go to the car show and back - yes, defnitely. If you are happy with "good enough" then you will be happy.
Able to tune it as fine as you want with consistency? Not sure, depends on who you ask. As good as OEM - how could it? No way. Way too many sacrifices would have to be made to achieve a bolt-on solution that would fit on nearly any V8 for example.

I know people who did something similar to what Twin Turbo did, but I do not have the experience to puzzle something like this together. Many people initially do it to save money, but in the end, I believe they have a much more reliable machine.

The new MSD system looks interesting as well..all inclusive like others and looks great, but I am not sure of its short comings either.

In the end, I stayed with carbs - just too many uncertainties for something that really costs a lot of money.

Lots of 8 stack fuel injected cobras running around. All 12 of the factory approved full comp cars assembled by finishline motorsports run just fine. I can start mine from outside the car when cold or hot no problem, idle in parade for 2 hours , go on cruise up hi-way 1 or over Sonora pass. T.W.M. with motec , engine by Kroyer. Also csx in modesto with Roush engine seemed to run fine to and from car show in Modesto last month. 468 cu in shelby F.E. in my car also puts 568 hp to rear wheels. I would assume rest of comp csx cars do the same. Shared space at SAAC 35 with another full comp csx car and both cars had zero problems.

If you have a close to stock engine, then a factory EFI system will work well and be cost effective. But if your engine is somewhat radical, then you can use an aftermarket system and get excellent results. You just have to know what you're doing and be willing to work at it.

The self learning procedure works rather well, but it's not perfect. Once the computer does it's thing, you'll have to go in and make the appropriate changes to get it to do what you want.

A lot of people have trouble with the 8 stack systems. A lot of that trouble comes from not understanding their strengths and weaknesses, not tuning the hardware correctly, and not using the proper matching parts. IR intake systems are a different animal, and you need to build the engine to take advantage of those differences.

There's a serious misconception that carburetors are somehow perfect right out of the box. If I remember correctly, Quadrajet made over 24,000 different models precisely because a carb needs to be tuned in correctly, too. Just because most builders drop one on a motor and it fires up is no guarantee the jets are optimal, the pumps squirt just enough fuel, the secondaries open correctly at the proper time, or that the idle was even set with a vacuum gauge per the manufacturer's requirements. It's something the average guy never does.

And, it's no different for EFI. What you're reading about this system or that not being optimal is a mechanically inclined carb guy on a dyno trying to scope out a EFI program he's likely never seen. Doesn't even understand what the parameters are, how to set things up. The owner's no help, he's only seen it for a few weeks, too. I have yet to read where they called the manufacturer and cleared up a question, either - carb or EFI. That would be admitting weakness, and guys don't ever do that.

Strangely enough, when I talk to car owners who are 1) younger than 35, 2) modify foreign makes, I don't hear "Carbs are better, EFI is junk." They make the systems work better. Same on the Jeep forums, and most 4WD, too. Diesel especially. They are all about the EFI and how to tweak it. And they get results.

I look at engines where EFI was applied, and see gains of 30 hp and 4-5 mpg. That was on a simple engine like the 300 Ford six. Or, this: Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT EFI Install- Hot Rod Magazine

I get a lot of older guys in at the parts counter where the bulk of the complaints come from. I have to add, if I suggest what website they might get more information about it, I get a deer in the headlights look, too. Mention speed density vs mass air flow, and their eyes glaze over. Yet, one or the other is what they parked out front.

It's what NASCAR will use in the near future. We're turning the corner, carbs are going the way of 6 volt batteries, big blocks, and bias ply tires. We don't use those any more, either. Nobody complains about what replaced them.

I'm building a 427 side oiler and the 8-stack has always been a dream,.....:cool:

The reality problems, are the cost of the system and the computer issues.

Another product is the newer FAST EZ-EFI. Any of you running this or heard from other owners ?

EZ-EFI by FAST™ - The Easiest Way to Convert Your Carb to EFI

A friend has a automotive shop, performance building and has a chassis dyno, but he has not worked on any of the self tuning systems, yet.
So, he does not know what to think about them.

Craig- The Holley is $1,500, wow.
I could not find a price for the Motec. How much was yours & can you post pics of it and your motor ?
What EFI is yours ?

Dwight- I assume that's the eightstack on your RCR ?
How do you like it, any issues ?
What computer ?

Beautiful...., from eightstack.com

Just wanted to give my input as I come primarily from the EFI tuning world. I've tuned on three or four different systems and personally have been really happy with VEMS (Versatile Engine Management Systems). It has sequential injection for 8 injectors, all the outputs you'd ever need (including outputs for 8 coils), and has been rock solid for me. Plus, you can get an Econoseal version (wire yourself with econoseal connections) for around $800.

The problem is, not everyone is inclined towards this kind of setup. It requires a sharp individual if you really want to make things smooth, but a good dealer can help you out a great deal with a tune over the internet. I have personally tuned several turbo cars remotely (just fuel and such, I will only tune spark on a dyno) with good results and for free. My friend who is a dealer for the system does the same.

I have seen good things from MoTeC as well. I wouldn't really mess with anything else if you don't want to deal with little niggles and such or don't have the time or desire to learn a thing or two about tuning standalone EFI management systems. Anyway, the bottom line is that I would recommend VEMS and MoTeC based on personal experience.

The problem with Cobras and EFI is the exhaust and finding the best location for the O2 sensors. There are many that run them open loop, but if you're going to do that just get a carb. EFI is all about a closed loop controller (really, a servo system with 2nd degree feedback). The problem is that most EFI systems come programmed for an entirely different exhaust system. The O2 sensors are not ideally place with enough downstream pipe to get good averaging, and the lack of a real muffler does not give adequate backpressure to do the averaging. Furthermore, the O2 sensor needs to placed nearly upright, and that is very difficult. Placed in the passenger pipe after the pipes join, at low RPMs there is not enough flow and you get air coming back in that yields an increase in oxygen and the engine will want to run rich. At high RPMs it will probably be OK. The magic is to get your tune set for the exhaust you have. It will take a tuner familiar with your system.

In the end I got a lot more "pleasant" driving experience with my heavy foot at altitude by moving the O2 sensor from the post-collector area to the top of the header on one cylinder.

Mine was the Roush 427IR with the Accel EFI controller. It is way complicated. There are less complicated systems that don't have as many interacting knobs. The biggest problem I had with Accel was getting the altitude compensation set up correctly but once we did that it ran like a champ.

Twobjshelbys,

I'm thinking the top of the headers would give the most accurate reading, but...
How can does one do this without frying/burning the O2 sensor?
Isn't it too hot on the top of the headers?

Many thanks

The O2 sensors for my mass flo are in the header pipes about 14 inches from the flange and mounted upright. About 20,000 miles on the system and no problems with the O2's yet. One of the things a narrow band sensor needs is heat to make it read correctly. Wide bands not so much because they have integrated heaters in the sensor. This is one of the reasons narrow bands don't read as efficiently when mounted in the collector in front of the muffler. Not hot enough.
DonC

With our typical side pipes, where exactly should the sensor's be ?

Would the turn out be too cold ?
Just asking because on the chassis dyno, they insert the o2 sensor wand in the tail pipe of the exhaust, unless it's custom and installed it near the headers.

Guys, I have the MSD EFI on a Ford Racing 427 (off the new Boss small block) in a '67 Fastback and it's not only programmable but it adjusts to my driving style. It can also be tuned for track, drags or cruising. I can already sense some "fine tuning" has occurred in the first 750 miles.

Kevin:
Find out which type of O2 sensor you'll be working with. Narrow band or wide band.
Narrow band need to get in pretty close to the exhaust port. Wide band have a lot more latitude as to where they're placed.
DonC