Help - going on my 3rd Flywheel :(

Kramer · #1 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 09:45 AM

Folks - Can anyone point me in the right direction my TWM / Accel Gen 7 set up. The short story is i am now on my 3rd starter and and second Flywheel. After not being able to start it a year ago, I noticed that the powermaster starter seemed to have "popped" out and not only did I have teeth missing on the flywheel, but one of the flywheel bolts was sheered off. FYI..the car does not even have 600 miles on it yet.

So last year, new starter(s) (first an OEM, then I went to RobbMC).....and a new flywheel (both old and new are aluminum). About a month ago, went to start my car and the starter just spun....looked inside and noticed at least 9 teeth on the new flywheel missing.

I have talked to quite a few folks and some seem to think it has to do with timing and kick back upon starting which I am beginning to believe.

ALSO, I did not put the system in and for right now, I have no technical information or computer disk etc. I would like to possibly fix this once and all myself but wondering your thoughts on just where to start.

(yes, I could send the car out to someone, but the cost may be more than I can chew and i don't learn a thing)

Any help appreciated,

Kramer

blykins · #2 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 10:09 AM

Which flywheel, bellhousing, and starter do you have?

Also, on the sheered flywheel bolts, if it's an FE, you can get flywheel bolts from ARP that are too long, and they will contact the block.

Kramer · #3 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 10:53 AM

427 SO- compression 10.3
Lakewood BH. Robbmc starter, McLeod alum flywheel.... More details will come just on my phone right noe

blykins · #4 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 10:56 AM

There used to be two cutouts on the bellhousing block plate. If you knocked the wrong one out, it could put the starter in a weird spot in relation to the ring gear.

Kramer · #5 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 02:28 PM

I have some pictures ... When I get home later I'll post some.... Perhaps it can help someone help me...Ty blykins for ur thoughts

patrickt · #6 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kramer

I have talked to quite a few folks and some seem to think it has to do with timing and kick back upon starting which I am beginning to believe.

ALSO, I did not put the system in and for right now, I have no technical information or computer disk etc.

What is your initial timing? And you sheared one bolt from your flywheel to the crank, and the others were ok?

obrian · #7 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 02:40 PM

I am looking for access to the best front coil spring rate for a Pinto front end on my Kellison j4. Please direct my request as needed. The car is 2400 lbs with 1200 on the front with driver in car. I believe my donar car was a station wagon and the rate for those coils is over 375. I am thinking of 275 from Speedway motors as they seem to be the only ones that carry that rate
Thanks....Obrian kellison

Kramer · #8 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 03:36 PM

I will have to check on the intial timing later tonight (I think I should have the documents from the engine builder at home). However when the intial timing was set it had a carb on it. I was told that once the TWM set up was put on the Accel box controls the timing? (can't say I know exactly what that means though).

The other bolts were fine, just the head of one of the bolts was sheared off.

patrickt · #9 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kramer

I will have to check on the intial timing later tonight...

The other bolts were fine, just the head of one of the bolts was sheared off.

Dang... 1) I've never heard of shearing just one of the flywheel bolts off by its head. 2) I have never touched my hands to an Accel Engine Control Unit... but, if you had, say, 40+ degrees of timing at start up I guess you could eat up your starter and flywheel, maybe shear a bolt head too... maybe. With all that said, I do know that if you have your distributor setting not in synch with your timing table entries on the ECU screen you can get a ridiculous result. Like this: Accel gen7 Starting Problem - LS1TECH I guess, in theory, that could be the problem.

patrickt · #10 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 05:05 PM

Or maybe something like this from the Accel DFI Instructions:

• Using a carbureted style distributor: If you are using a distributor from a carbureted engine that has centrifugal advance, you must lock down the advance and install an adjustable phase-able rotor (if possible) to prevent engine kickback while starting.
(Failure to do so will cause numerous issues that include: Broken starters, no start conditions, spark scatter and erratic timing).

LMH · #11 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 05:39 PM

Did you align the bellhousing when you installed it?
Larry

SSSammy · #12 (**permalink**) 01-30-2013, 08:02 PM

Tom, just another view on why you have been busting teeth. From Tilton, I learned that the Lakewood BH/block plate/McLeod FW space the starter a little too far away and you don't get enough engagement pinion to flywheel. When that little pinion tries to spin that 482 with minimal tooth engagement, guess what? Different blocks and flywheels, ymmv.

On my Tilton SuperStarter, I measured the distance from the forward face of the block plate to the flywheel teeth, compared that to the Tilton spec, and determined that my pinion was falling short by .060". A call to Tilton confirmed that they knew this was an issue and they told me to have the starter housing machined down. I took the starter flange down to a local machine shop and had them turn it down .060" on a lathe. Just the outer rim, not the center boss. You don't change the diameter of the "registration ring", just the height of it. That put the pinion .060" deeper into the flywheel teeth.

Funny, they supply shims with the starter if you have too much engagement. What I needed was negative shim

An un-shim ...

I can't say why you had a broken FW bolt. I don't know if that is related to this. Maybe it was defective, overtorqued, or if all of them were under-torqued then they will start to fail, like lug bolts on a wheel.

Good luck,
Sam

Kramer · #13 (**permalink**) 01-31-2013, 12:34 PM

Thanks Sammy (and others). FWIW, I was looking through the engine documentation and it seems initial timing was set at 35 degrees (many samples were run some as low as 32). Also the Flywheel is a MCL billit alluminum flywheel.

Rick - thanks - I have sent you a PM

I am going to measure / review as much as possible this weekend b/c I did not install the motor. Once the building had it ready, I had another party install the motor, bellhousing and twm stack injection. He and I have talked this as well b/c he put the second flywheel starter in and talked with Robb at RobbMC to make sure specs were right. Thus I don't have much more information to go on this point.

patrickt · #14 (**permalink**) 01-31-2013, 01:11 PM

If it was me, I'd put a red mark on the balancer about where the 35 BTDC line is then, with the car off, I'd put the timing light on it and have the trigger pulled while I had someone start it up, all just to see if I'm anywhere close to that red mark upon start up....

SSSammy · #15 (**permalink**) 01-31-2013, 01:37 PM

Assuming an FE is an FE, 35 deg is about where you want to be at full advance, when running at 3000 rpm. Idle is probably 15 deg or thereabouts. If you have a mechanical (centrifugal) advance distributor, it has a bushing that is intended to stop the advance at 20 deg past whatever you set it at when idling. I seem to remember this parameter can be changed by changing the size of the bushing. You can hold a light on it while someone works the throttle and watch it go from 15 to 35 as the rpms approach 3000.

The colored springs on the advance mechanism (under the rotor) can be swapped out to control the rpm where the engine reaches max advance .. dependent on intended use.

Sam

patrickt · #16 (**permalink**) 01-31-2013, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSSammy

Assuming an FE is an FE, 35 deg is about where you want to be at full advance,

....

The colored springs on the advance mechanism (under the rotor) can be swapped out to control the rpm where the engine reaches max advance .. dependent on intended use.

That's with your and my setup. With the full ECU running the timing show you have to set it up differently, as per those threads that I posted, else you're going to end up with 30, 40, or 50 degrees at startup. Putting a light on it with someone starting it up for him will at least tell him if something is really amiss.

Kramer · #17 (**permalink**) 01-31-2013, 06:32 PM

I guess my first question before I get it apart is:

Should I try to turn the engine with a breaker bar (so I can get it pass the missing teeth)....and see if I can get it started to check timing BEFORE I take it apart?

patrickt · #18 (**permalink**) 01-31-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kramer

I guess my first question before I get it apart is:

Should I try to turn the engine with a breaker bar (so I can get it pass the missing teeth)....and see if I can get it started to check timing BEFORE I take it apart?

Yeah, I would. Because, if for some reason, you have the wrong distributor configuration, or the wrong ECU configuration, or a combination of both, and you're starting up with tons of advance, then you're just going to eat another starter or flyweel. If for some reason there's too many missing teeth, or it just cranks for a second or two and then stops at the missing tooth spot, then you might, just might, be able to check your initial timing via the old static method that we used to do 40 years ago. But that might not work with the ECU, I don't know. But I'd at least try it once before I just put on new parts and crossed my fingers. If the static method showed you were getting a spark to the #1 plug with a hand turn at anything over, say, 25 degrees, then I would red flag that as a problem. But, again, I'm not sure the static system would work with the ECU. If you elect to try the static method, we can give you detailed instructions. The only danger is that you accidentally start the engine with a socket wrench on the balancer bolt and it hurts you or the bolt.

SSSammy · #19 (**permalink**) 01-31-2013, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kramer

I guess my first question before I get it apart is:

Should I try to turn the engine with a breaker bar (so I can get it pass the missing teeth)....and see if I can get it started to check timing BEFORE I take it apart?

Well, I have no argument with Patrick's suggestion. But if that fails .. these things will bump start (if your EFI is functional). If you have a slope to roll down, or some helpers. I have done that when my battery was dead away from home. Worst thing that can happen is it won't start and you have to push it back to the house ...

Good luck!
Sam

Kramer · #20 (**permalink**) 06-02-2013, 05:54 PM

Thought I would update everyone on my progress now that I finally had some time to work on my car. I don't know how everyone makes it seem easy but getting that transmission out was pain in the put (not looking forward to getting in back in). I was able to get everything apart today. When I pulled off the Lakewood Bellhousing, the missing teeth fell out....( I counted 14 missing in total). Everything else looked good though. (FWIW it was a aluminum flywheel)...184 tooth count.

I am going to get a new one(think I might just do steel this time) and follow the specific procedures for aligning the bellhousing per a conversation with Rick L. I was also able to look at the starter....pushing out the small teeth on the starter it looks as if it is was engaging somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 into the ring gear). I am really thinking the Bellhousing alignment may be the issue but we will see soon.

If anyone has any thoughts or parts recommendations for a flywheel, let me know.

Thanks