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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-10-2018, 07:00 AM
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Cobra Make, Engine: Backdraft #318, 418 CI, 532 RWHP, Mass Flow Injected, TKO600-Road Race, BMW M3 Suspension, Race Springs (Wouldn't do it again, rough on the street).
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This is just FYI stuff, not a recommendation, only personal experience.

I have been running a Mass-Flo EFI for over 9 years now. Might even be some of their first equipment out of there. It has been flawless on 418 cu in, 532 RWH with a very big cam and only needed a slight tune. Mine uses the old A9L Ford computer and I did have to replace that once along the way. Got it at Auto Zone for something like $75 as I remember. Plugged it back in and a few hundred miles later after it had time to think a bit, I was back to normal. I have heard all the criticisms of restricted air flow through the carb like 4 barrel with the GM MF sensor, but the thing is rated at 1000 CFM (which I doubt, but no data) and makes all the HP my street car setup can handle in a super reliable, easy to drive way.

The real plus to EFI in my opinion is the reliability of starting up every time winter or summer, idling as good as possible with a big cam, and the smoothest running imaginable for engines like most of us run. I have had to do absolutely nothing to this system and except for a capacitor failure on the computer board, never had even a burp.

My system is old and there is a much newer and more complicated model from them now, so I have no experience with that but it does interest me. Although I really have no reason to even consider changing anything and would probably be an idiot for doing so the way I use the car.

Again, not a recommendation, but the "self-learning" system has worked for me or worked as good as an OEM Ford system can and with a little "chip" help, tuned up right on the numbers.

Good luck to everyone working through this, reading the posts, looks like it can be really frustrating in some cases.
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Last edited by wrogers55; 10-10-2018 at 07:06 AM..
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
Thanks for the heads up cycleguy.

I've just visited the site to check with Opera, Firefox and Safari without warning of the trojan virus. Has anybody else had the virus warning popup when you visited?

Thx,

Ed
I'm running 'Malwarebytes Browser Extension' - that's what flagged the site, not the browser itself.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:54 AM
eschaider's Avatar
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Cobra Make, Engine: SPF 2291, Whipple Blown & Injected 4.6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cycleguy55 View Post
I'm running 'Malwarebytes Browser Extension' - that's what flagged the site, not the browser itself.
That's interesting Brian, so am I and my Malwarebytes does not flag the virus.

I wonder if it is a platform specific alert. I am running a Mac. If you are running a PC the PC version of Malwarebytes might be catching a PC specific version of the virus that does not have a Mac equivalent from that particular virus creator.

If anyone else is getting the virus alert please add to the conversation. As soon as we can get multiple alerts and any helpful specifics surrounding the alert I'll forward the information to the webmaster over there.

There is no need to be unknowingly assisting virus creators in spreading their mayhem.

Ed
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2019, 07:01 AM
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DIYAUTOTUNE.COM is a reliable online store. Not sure what the link was, but search for them through you favorite search engine and follow their link if you question it.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2019, 08:32 AM
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For the self tuning systems out their that do not control the timing, congratulations you have replaced a carburetor.

I too have an old MassFlow system that uses an A9L EEC IV. He claimed it was self tuning because Ford programmed the EEC IV to correct the fuel tables based on the O2 sensors. If you have a bone stock 5.0 and used 19 lb./hr injectors the system is as perfect, as Ford made it, which is pretty darn good. As you move away from a stock 5.0 the system becomes less perfectly tuned for your engine.

Later MassFlow chipped the ECU to correct for some of this, but not all of it. I talked with them several times. He insisted that Ford knew more about timing curves than me and all my internet tuning buddies would ever know. I tried to explain to him that Ford did not use the same timing tables for every engine, and that the combustion chamber design impacts how much timing an engine needs. I was not about to pay him to send me a chip if he was going to keep the standard timing tables. I gave up and ended the last phone call. I'm quite certain we both thought the other was an idiot. At least I still do.

That all said the A9L gives a total WOT timing of 28 deg. If you have 36 lb/hr injectors like me, the mass flow sensor was curved to tell the ECU that 19/36th of the true air flow was entering the engine. This gets the fuel right, but wait. Also the ECU thinks the engine displacement is 302 cid. The ECU uses these two numbers to calculate the engine load. The engine load is used to determine how much timing the engine needs. Well if you had a 572 cid engine these two lies would cancel out and all would be good. So for my 347, at anything other than WOT the load is calculated to be significantly lower than it is, so I get way more timing than I need. However my engine does need closer to 34 deg at WOT. I could actually feel a big power change by going from WOT to slightly less and getting the ECU to switch out of the WOT timing map.

Bottom line they left a lot of power on the table. Engines ran pretty well with the fuel correct, but power suffered.

The new system MassFlow is now selling, looks to me to be a great system. The only problem I saw was them not wanting to admit their previous mistakes and recommending that you shouldn't change most of the parameters that you need to change if you have a non factory stock engine. It looked to me to have it all. The fact that they force you to buy a new wire harness, rather than sell an adapter, it put the price tag too high for me. If they had offered it before I had gotten the Quarter Horse chip and everything else to tune my own ECU, I might have went that route.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2019, 09:33 AM
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If you elect to run an aftermarket ECU or a modified OEM ECU you can get a nice starting point in your tune from the self tuning capabilities that the system has, if it has them. Beyond that you will benefit significantly by tuning your system for your engine / car / application.

Just like putting on a bigger carb and having to re-jet the carb for you car, EFI is the same. If you think you can pick it out of a box and begin using the car w/o a tune you will be sadly disappointed.

The big benefit that EFI offers is absolute control over all the fueling and timing variables for the engine. If you are uncomfortable with that level of responsibility or if it is a bridge too far, you have three choices;

⦿ go back to a carb,

⦿ use a self learning unit (to the extent it learns),

⦿ tune the car your self or get someone to tune it for you.

BTW that last option requires dyno time for the calibration process to be done correctly and I should have added someone who actually understands the tuning process.

Ed
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 03-09-2019, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olddog View Post
For the self tuning systems out their that do not control the timing, congratulations you have replaced a carburetor.

I too have an old MassFlow system that uses an A9L EEC IV. He claimed it was self tuning because Ford programmed the EEC IV to correct the fuel tables based on the O2 sensors. If you have a bone stock 5.0 and used 19 lb./hr injectors the system is as perfect, as Ford made it, which is pretty darn good. As you move away from a stock 5.0 the system becomes less perfectly tuned for your engine.

Later MassFlow chipped the ECU to correct for some of this, but not all of it. I talked with them several times. He insisted that Ford knew more about timing curves than me and all my internet tuning buddies would ever know. I tried to explain to him that Ford did not use the same timing tables for every engine, and that the combustion chamber design impacts how much timing an engine needs. I was not about to pay him to send me a chip if he was going to keep the standard timing tables. I gave up and ended the last phone call. I'm quite certain we both thought the other was an idiot. At least I still do.

That all said the A9L gives a total WOT timing of 28 deg. If you have 36 lb/hr injectors like me, the mass flow sensor was curved to tell the ECU that 19/36th of the true air flow was entering the engine. This gets the fuel right, but wait. Also the ECU thinks the engine displacement is 302 cid. The ECU uses these two numbers to calculate the engine load. The engine load is used to determine how much timing the engine needs. Well if you had a 572 cid engine these two lies would cancel out and all would be good. So for my 347, at anything other than WOT the load is calculated to be significantly lower than it is, so I get way more timing than I need. However my engine does need closer to 34 deg at WOT. I could actually feel a big power change by going from WOT to slightly less and getting the ECU to switch out of the WOT timing map.

Bottom line they left a lot of power on the table. Engines ran pretty well with the fuel correct, but power suffered.

The new system MassFlow is now selling, looks to me to be a great system. The only problem I saw was them not wanting to admit their previous mistakes and recommending that you shouldn't change most of the parameters that you need to change if you have a non factory stock engine. It looked to me to have it all. The fact that they force you to buy a new wire harness, rather than sell an adapter, it put the price tag too high for me. If they had offered it before I had gotten the Quarter Horse chip and everything else to tune my own ECU, I might have went that route.
Your story is interesting....

I had an early ODB1 mass flo system on my roush 427sr. Last summer the computer took a dump and with no replacement parts available and lack of interest to spend the money to replace with a new Mass Flo or other system I took the motor back to the spec'd carb/intake from roush.

It runs SOOOO much better to my surprise.

I wonder if some of the issues you pointed out contribute to this or my system was faily over the years and not properly controlling the motor.

Jeff
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 03-09-2019, 06:45 AM
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If it was not chipped:

A good chance that the part throttle (where the engine runs most of the time) timing was too much, making less power and the engine nervous or jittery acting.

Even if it was chipped:
A good chance that at WOT you were not getting enough timing to make maximum power.

Deep under the Mass Flow strategy, there is an Alpha N strategy (throttle position and rpm only). It serves two purposes. One, if the mass flow sensor fails it will get you home. Two in sudden throttle change situations the Mass Flow strategy is too slow to figure out what to do and it switches back to Alpha N. When they do the ratio the mass flow sensor to the fuel injector size trick, and when the cid is not corrected, the Alpha N strategy is terribly wrong. This means it doesn't handle sudden throttle changes well and if you unplug the mass flow sensor, you aren't likely to get home.
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