Nanufacture of this stacked injection ?

[FUNFER2]

The ebay seller does not know who made this unit.

He's,...."I'm selling for a friend"

anyway, I'm curious, but not a possible buyer.

Ford FE Webber Style 8 Stack Fuel Injected Intake Manifold.


Ford FE Webber Style 8 Stack Fuel Injected Intake Manifold | eBay

[fordracing65]

TWM or Borla.

[FUNFER2]

I wish we could know exactly,....

I've always wanted a stacked injection, but way too expensive. One like this, could be affordable, but I don't want a piece of *hit and troubles.

"This is what the seller just wrote me.

"When I Google Ford FE 8 stack manifold it looks exactly like the fast one, throttle bodys too except polished, the rails are different though

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

I wish we could know exactly,....

I've always wanted a stacked injection, but way too expensive. One like this, could be affordable, but I don't want a piece of *hit and troubles.

"This is what the seller just wrote me.

"When I Google Ford FE 8 stack manifold it looks exactly like the fast one, throttle bodys too except polished, the rails are different though

Fast is twm.

[fordracing65]

You would still need to buy a stand alone system. Wiring harness. Injectors. Etc. about 5 grand more.

[FUNFER2]

Ya, that sucks !
I've heard of some complete systems costing around 12k (+)

Nothing looks cooler in a Cobra than stacked injection.

[map]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

You would still need to buy a stand alone system. Wiring harness. Injectors. Etc. about 5 grand more.

Mircosqurit 339.00.

Microsquirt Standalone Engine Management with 30" Wiring Harness | eBay

[66gtk]

Borla purchased TWM and the same designer works for both. I have a complete 8 stack system installed in my ERA with a 427 FE. I'm considering pulling it out and going with dual carbs for the sake of original appearance and function. It's complete with everything you need. It's a TWM unit and XFI computer, Autotrend harness, dual wide band, programing key, cables, etc... And yes, a complete new system is about 10K, not including custom dyno tuning.

[ERA 626]

Originally Posted by 66gtk

Borla purchased TWM and the same designer works for both. I have a complete 8 stack system installed in my ERA with a 427 FE. I'm considering pulling it out and going with dual carbs for the sake of original appearance and function. It's complete with everything you need. It's a TWM unit and XFI computer, Autotrend harness, dual wide band, programing key, cables, etc... And yes, a complete new system is about 10K, not including custom dyno tuning.

Is that the one neil built?

[olddog]

I did notice that at the London Cobra show this year, there were more 8 stack and webber (both real and EFI) than I remember in the past.

I have to admit I do love looking at them.

I also somewhat agree with the previous post. The EFI system he pointed out is the next generation of the MassFlow that I have and it looks to be a fine system. Although I do disagree with the self tuning claims a bit, but that is another discussion.

I think these 8 stacks are way over priced. I am a fan of measuring the mass flow of air entering the engine. MAP is OK. When you have to go Alpha-N, I'm not sure it can measure fuel as good as a carb would.

I love the look of the 8 stacks. I think a mass meter in one stack might have a chance of working. Or if an air filter box was put on top and all stacks pulled from the filter box, a single tube with a mass meter could feed the filter box. I'm quite sure I could build this for way less money using a friends machine shop. I doubt I will ever try, but after I retire, maybe.

[FUNFER2]

I agree, WAY,....over priced.

The "self learn" is a trial to make tuning easier, but what I hear from engine builders and seasoned vets of the old school guys, is, they don't have the system worked out yet, as they still have problems to be worked out. That's why so many give up and go back to carbs.

My father had a friend that was a carb extreme pro. I remember watching him in his garage tuning with a vacuum gauge and more important, his ears, on his 12 cylinder,....... Jag. Amazing to watch and listen. Every spark plug were the same grayish color. Not rich, not lean, just right.

I love all the old gassers that had the stacks sticking out of the hood a foot tall.

[FUNFER2]

Did any,.... of the big block Cobras have the stacked injection or just the small motors ?

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Did any,.... of the big block Cobras have the stacked injection or just the small motors ?

No. Big block competition Cobras used carb with turkey pan.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

The "self learn" is a trial to make tuning easier, but what I hear from engine builders and seasoned vets of the old school guys, is, they don't have the system worked out yet, as they still have problems to be worked out. That's why so many give up and go back to carbs.

Self tune is a marketing ploy. Ford and every other manufacturer uses O2 sensors to add or subtract fuel. Different OEM have different methods, but they all basically accomplish the same thing. Most OEM, if not all, use narrow band O2 to dial in the fuel trims. The narrow band O2 is only used at light loads, when Lamda is near 1.0 (14.7 air to fuel ratio).

The aftermarket guys toss in a wide band and claim now we can self tune at all conditions. True enough, but if you correct at light loads, you will be correct at heavy loads, as it works for the OEMs. So did they gain anything with the wide band? Maybe maybe not. The reason the OEMs use narrow band is that they are more accurate and long term much more reliable.

Now all this self tuning is about getting the fuel to actually deliver what was asked for. It does not tune or change in any way what is asked for. What is asked for is the most important part of tuning the fuel. Well, a 14.7 AFR gives the least emissions, leaner better fuel mileage, and ~12.5 the most power at WOT. If you run 14.7 at WOT the engine melts, assuming detonation doesn't destroy it first.

So if at heavy loads the engine pings, you may want to richen up the fuel or pull some timing. These self tunes do nothing for this. Timing is where the power is at, and they want to tell you that one timing curve runs all engines. Well it will if you use modest timing for the engine that is most prone to detonation, and all other engines will leave power on the table and waste fuel doing it. Well a knock sensor can be used to pull timing, but it just yanks out a bunch to save the engine. It does not experiment and add a little back in at a time until it hears a ping and then back it off. At least every system I have read about acts that way. It would be possible to do, but I have not heard of any doing that. Not that I know everything.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

The "self learn" is a trial to make tuning easier, but what I hear from engine builders and seasoned vets of the old school guys, is, they don't have the system worked out yet, as they still have problems to be worked out. That's why so many give up and go back to carbs.

Depends on what kind of "self learning" system we are talking about.

With some of these new, self learning throttle body injection systems... I agree- They are buggy (I think TBI sucks in general for performance applications, to be honest- If you want to run a cheap carburetor style intake manifold, then you might as well just run a carb on top of it... )

But MAF/MAP combination port injection systems are fairly well established, and still offer the most EFI benefits for the cost (JMHO).

Olddog- Great post about wide band versus narrow band tuning - agree that it is all more about marketting BS than actual performance.

Your idea about integrating the MAFS into the 8-stack horns is one I have thought of as well - But I was thinking that the best way to do it would be to string an air flow meter across each air horn, and then program a chip to aggregate the signals from the 8 sensors and blend them into one air flow curve to feed the PCM, as opposed to using the signal from just one throttle body and then assuming that the other 7 are flowing the same amount of air... probably 6 of one, half dozen of the other- Your way would be easier (and cheaper)

But like you said- it's pretty much just a brain exercise, and would only add more cost to these outrageous $10,000 systems, so unlikely to ever go anywhere.

And like you also said- every year, more and more guys are running these systems - Eventually, the single carb look is going to be the most exotic looking

[razerwire]

To me , for what its worth, the manifold looks different than any of the T.W.M. manifolds that I have. If you go to current Borla site it looks different than newest one. I have one of the early setups where their is casting between throttle bodies at butterflies and I have two of newer T.W.M. units where the middle casting between throttle bodies has black springs instead of enclosed. All the manifolds have ribs down the center and are really good castings. The manifold pictured is real ruff compared to mine. Fuel rails seam crude also. Just freshened up engine for Bennett car and used oldest manifold with the casting between throttle bodies. Was surprised at the numbers. Engine had original sidewinder intake with reworked carb and made 455 hp. With T.W.M. and set of aluminum heads , now have 658 hp at 6000 rpm. Torque is 523 at 2500 rpm up to 631 at 4700 rpm, and never goes below 514 up to max rpm of 6500. The csx car has had T.W.M. setup since day one and I have had zero problems with it. Just hauled Gene Winfield in parade 3 weeks ago for hour, I admit when I went home the engine seamed happy to have it's barrels opened more than idle. Sorry back to subject, does not look like T.W.M. or newer Borla unit to me.

[razerwire]

It does have Capstan tower linkage kit and throttle bodies are close but not quite.

[Dimis]

Based purely on the little evidence available, if I had to guess the manifold looks like a polished Holman Moody job. Not their new stuff, but an older version.

The stacks & linkages look like Borla stuff to my eye (as mentioned now also TWM).
Fuel rails actually look quite new, but I have NFI from whom...?

I wildly suspect (with NO shred of evidence) that the system was purchased separately, in parts, and pieced together in an attempt by someone to engineer a cost effective 8 stack system. They may have either run out of money, or energy or the inclination to get it to all work cooperatively with their engine.

Do I think its a good deal at the listed price? Well that's another question. Personally, I'd pass, as I'm ill equipped to fix anything that may need addressing with this system. However someone else with the skills could find this to be a bargain.

As for visual appeal, I like the 8 stack be it webers or EFI. In fact that's what I wanted, I'm just not brave enough, or smart enough to think I could make it work, so I've opted for a dual quad system instead.

[Luce]

It's relisted. NIce looking piece of hardware. If you're willing to do the learning, you can make a perfectly streetable setup with it... or if you have deep enough pockets to pay someone else to do the learning.

[eschaider]

Some how I missed this thread when it first started. Couple of thoughts on the self tuning and knock protection.


Self Tuning

My experience has been that as Bob (Moore) and Olddog have already said / implied the self tuning leaves more than a little on the table tuning-wise compared to the results a skilled tuner can provide. However, it can easily get you up and running tuned well enough to allow you to finesse the tune to what you need should you want to take a shot at the job. Alternatively it gets you running well enough to drive the vehicle to your tuner to have him finish the job.

By far the MAF (Mass Air Flow) based systems provide the most consistent tune across all environmental conditions, altitude, temperature and barometer. The reason auto manufacturers use MAF based systems is it allows their vehicles to meet the strict emissions targets anywhere in the country or world for that matter.

A Speed Density system can be easier to tune because it is volumetric efficiency (Ve) based and infact you tune it by manipulating the engine's apparent Ve across the Fuel Ve Table. The task is not particularly difficult but if you change anything that affects Ve you end up retuning the engine. Additionally if you go to altitude or sea level the tune changes again because of engine Ve changes attributable to altitude driven air density changes. If you change cams, carbs, manifolds, mufflers etc the engine Ve changes and a retune is required.

With the MAF based system the MAF measures the actual mass of air in Kg/hr, g/sec or what ever your particular system uses to gauge the air mass entering the engine. Once the ECU knows the air mass it can calculate the fuel volume required from the AFR or lambda commanded in the tune. You can change anything you want on the engine and the MAF will accurately measure the air mass and the ECU will calculate injector pulse widths required to deliver this fuel volume.

The MAF is an extremely important component of the MAF based EFI system. Because of that you need the best you can get. Pro-M offers that MAF. The 5 minute YouTube video here => MAF Signal Quality shows you what is possible.

DIYATOTUNE (<=clickable) HAS JUST ANNOUNCED A Plug and Play (PnP) version of their MS3Pro system that uses a stock Ford OEM engine harness and all the OEM sensors so you don't need to buy high dollar EFI manufacturer GM sensors and connectors at elevated prices. The Ford harness is easily available from salvage yards or new from Ford. The systems even come with a base tune that is good enough to drive to your tuner or begin to tune yourself if you are so inclined.

By transplanting the Ford harness and sensors to your engine and changing the engine displacement in the ECU, to what ever you are running, the system suddenly becomes specific to your engine.

Because there are so many different MAFs available, the system is delivered as a Speed Density system. It is easy to add your MAF xfer function and convert to a MAF based system. As a nice extra attraction available at no extra cost is that they also support an improved model of the OEM returnless fuel system allowing you to run big power pumps w/o pumping big fuel volumes around at boulevard causing speeds.


Knock Protection

The MS3Pro has a lot of engine protection features built in that you can choose to use if you want. One is knock protection. It actually does pull back on a cylinder by cylinder basis and then roll timing back in until it "hears" the characteristic sonic signature of knock. Once it hears the sonic signature it pulls back just far enough to avoid knock. It does this on a cylinder by cylinder basis in real time.

There is actually another knock detection and suppression system that is even better. It is the J&S Electronics (<=clickable) family of knock detection and suppression systems. J&S has been doing this stuff since the early 90's (possibly earlier) for the Turbo Buicks.

The J&S system identifies the knocking cylinder so quickly that it interdicts the detonation event before the next ignition event, in real time and on a cylinder by cylinder basis. Like the MS3Pro ECU it pulls back a programmable amount of timing at the first detection of knock. ON each subsequent ignition event it comes half way back and listens for knock. When it detects the second knock signature it falls back to the last safe ignition advance for that particular cylinder.

The J&S product(s) do this in real time, on a cylinder by cylinder basis even at peak engine rpm. They offer systems for distributor, coil on plug, coil near plug and just about any configuration you can imagine and for any type of engine n/a, supercharged, turbo charged, nitrous etc.

If you run a boosted engine and you do not use knock detection / suppression technology it is only a matter of time before you kill your engine.

Parting thoughts 14.7 AFR was for pure gasoline. If as most of us you get 10% ethanol gas at the pump the ethanol changes the stoich point to 14.08 and richens the max power point correspondingly. For boosted engines it will move the max power AFR from 11.7-ish to approximately 11.2-ish. Especially on boosted gasoline engines you will want to go slightly to the rich side and moderate your timing expectations.


Closing Thoughts

The eight stack system is not impossible but, it is difficult to use in a MAF based system because you need to seal the stacks to a single air box that draws the air through the MAF. Not impossible but the air box must be air tight or unmetered air will enter the engine and screw up the injector pulse width calculations.

A Speed Density system will be a breath of fresh air on an eight stack system because it does not use a MAF. That makes it very easy to use the eight stack system without hiding it under some type of air box.


Ed