Dual Quad 428 CJ

Khobra · #1 (**permalink**) 10-13-2015, 05:33 PM

So, after much digging I found that I had more issues then I thought. Long story short, had way too much oil to the top end. Was literally emptying the oil pan and loosing oil pressure. All the oil was at the top end in the valve covers.
Between my engine builder and myself we decided to go with the T&D rocker arm system and push rod oiling at build. This was my engine builders first use of said rocker system on FE engines. He called T&D for advise and got very poor directions. He decided that .125" restrictions were required for the rockers at the head oil ports.
After an accidental find that there was way too much oil to the top end I called T&D myself and was told that I need to plug the head oil port completely because we had decided on push rod oiling. Can't have both.
This issue has now been resolve and after some more fine tuning I have also eliminated the issue of rich idle by playing with timing. I was running 32 degrees total timing. I increased total to 37 degrees which made a big difference. Now runs much cleaner at idle. Didn't check initial, so don't even know what it is.
All is now good.

undy · #2 (**permalink**) 10-13-2015, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khobra

So, after much digging I found that I had more issues then I thought. Long story short, had way too much oil to the top end. Was literally emptying the oil pan and loosing oil pressure. All the oil was at the top end in the valve covers.
Between my engine builder and myself we decided to go with the T&D rocker arm system and push rod oiling at build. This was my engine builders first use of said rocker system on FE engines. He called T&D for advise and got very poor directions. He decided that .125" restrictions were required for the rockers at the head oil ports.
After an accidental find that there was way too much oil to the top end I called T&D myself and was told that I need to plug the head oil port completely because we had decided on push rod oiling. Can't have both.
This issue has now been resolve and after some more fine tuning I have also eliminated the issue of rich idle by playing with timing. I was running 32 degrees total timing. I increased total to 37 degrees which made a big difference. Now runs much cleaner at idle. Didn't check initial, so don't even know what it is.
All is now good.

I'm running 0.060". The oil quantity is sufficient for my Ersons and there's no oil ponding.

It's always a plus to have a builder that's REALLY knowledgeable on FEs.
Right sized FE head oil restrictors is sort of "FE 101". O.125'" from jump street is waaay oversized, IMHO. Especially true if using a high volume/pressure oil pump.

Khobra · #3 (**permalink**) 10-14-2015, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by undy

I'm running 0.060". The oil quantity is sufficient for my Ersons and there's no oil ponding.

It's always a plus to have a builder that's REALLY knowledgeable on FEs.
Right sized FE head oil restrictors is sort of "FE 101". O.125'" from jump street is waaay oversized, IMHO. Especially true if using a high volume/pressure oil pump.

Are you running push rod oiling as well?

Khobra · #4 (**permalink**) 10-15-2015, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by undy

I'm running 0.060". The oil quantity is sufficient for my Ersons and there's no oil ponding.

It's always a plus to have a builder that's REALLY knowledgeable on FEs.
Right sized FE head oil restrictors is sort of "FE 101". O.125'" from jump street is waaay oversized, IMHO. Especially true if using a high volume/pressure oil pump.

Hi again Undy,

I'm hoping you're following this thread. I was wondering if you're also running push rod oiling or just through the head into the rocker shafts, etc.

And BTW, I am running a Melling high volume pump.

patrickt · #5 (**permalink**) 10-15-2015, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khobra

Hi again Undy,

I'm hoping you're following this thread. I was wondering if you're also running push rod oiling or just through the head into the rocker shafts, etc.

And BTW, I am running a Melling high volume pump.

Like Undy, I, too, am running Ersons with my Edelbrock heads and have limited the oil flow with .060 restrictors. Traditional, through the head, oiling. The Erson instruction sheet specifically called for .060, but that is generally right around what a lot of builders use with a solid lifter cam in an FE. Melling HV pump, Canton road race pan.

undy · #6 (**permalink**) 10-15-2015, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khobra

Hi again Undy,

I'm hoping you're following this thread. I was wondering if you're also running push rod oiling or just through the head into the rocker shafts, etc.

And BTW, I am running a Melling high volume pump.

No, just through the heads.

Khobra · #7 (**permalink**) 10-16-2015, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by undy

No, just through the heads.

Thanks Undy, was wondering if there is anyone out there running push rod oiling in an FE engine and if there have been any issues.
Everything seems good so far. The rockers sound good and I hear nothing out of the ordinary. My rockers actually quietened down to normal after installing the head feed plugs. The lifters are anti pump up rollers and therefore are slightly noisier than stock.

patrickt · #8 (**permalink**) 10-14-2015, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khobra

This issue has now been resolve and after some more fine tuning I have also eliminated the issue of rich idle by playing with timing. I was running 32 degrees total timing. I increased total to 37 degrees which made a big difference. Now runs much cleaner at idle. Didn't check initial, so don't even know what it is.
All is now good.

OK, you know, "eye burning" in the garage is a sign of too lean a mixture, not too rich. In a lean idle condition you do not get a complete burn and raw gas heads out the exhaust. That's why your eyes burn. Just thought I'd pass that along....

Khobra · #9 (**permalink**) 10-14-2015, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

OK, you know, "eye burning" in the garage is a sign of too lean a mixture, not too rich. In a lean idle condition you do not get a complete burn and raw gas heads out the exhaust. That's why your eyes burn. Just thought I'd pass that along....

Thanks Patrick,

By advancing the time there is more time to burn the fuel. Hence, a cleaner, sweeter smell. Assuming that the condition was rich, would you not agree?
Much has been written and posted about throttle plates exposing too much transfer port thereby causing a rich idle. The solution has always been to close the throttle plates a bit to limit fuel flow from the transfer ports at idle.
By advancing the timing I was able to close the throttle plates at bit and achieving my desired idle speed of approx 950 RPM in neutral and also giving the fuel more time to burn.

DanEC · #10 (**permalink**) 10-14-2015, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khobra

Thanks Patrick,

By advancing the time there is more time to burn the fuel. Hence, a cleaner, sweeter smell. Assuming that the condition was rich, would you not agree?
Much has been written and posted about throttle plates exposing too much transfer port thereby causing a rich idle. The solution has always been to close the throttle plates a bit to limit fuel flow from the transfer ports at idle.
By advancing the timing I was able to close the throttle plates at bit and achieving my desired idle speed of approx 950 RPM in neutral and also giving the fuel more time to burn.

That sounds like a reasonable, thought-out approach to me. I've probably never had a car with a carburetor that idled lean so I wouldn't know if burning eyes is a sign of that or not. If it worked, it worked.

patrickt · #11 (**permalink**) 10-14-2015, 04:54 PM

Sounds good to me. After 40 years of adjusting carbs every which way you could think of, two years ago I tried a method recommended by an 80 year old ex-Ford mechanic and had used this method on my exact carb and my exact cam back in the early/mid 60's. The method sounds so goofy that I won't even bother to recite it here, but it absolutely worked better than my vacuum gauge or the "just guessing" method by backing the screws out the same amount.

Khobra · #12 (**permalink**) 10-14-2015, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Sounds good to me. After 40 years of adjusting carbs every which way you could think of, two years ago I tried a method recommended by an 80 year old ex-Ford mechanic and had used this method on my exact carb and my exact cam back in the early/mid 60's. The method sounds so goofy that I won't even bother to recite it here, but it absolutely worked better than my vacuum gauge or the "just guessing" method by backing the screws out the same amount.

Patrick, I would love to hear about this method you speak of. Would you take the time to post please.

patrickt · #13 (**permalink**) 10-14-2015, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khobra

Patrick, I would love to hear about this method you speak of. Would you take the time to post please.

He told me that at the Ford dealership where he worked for umpteen years, the way they adjusted the 427 engine with the high overlap 324 degree solid lifter cam with the single four barrel carb (my setup exactly) was this: Turn the idle screws all the way in, back them out an equal amount for both, say one and a half turns, keep the rubber cap on the manifold vacuum port. Start the car and get it to running temp. Then adjust the carb screws equally so that when you pull the rubber cap off the manifold port the idle neither increases nor decreases. It sounds too simple to work but, I have to say, I am a convert.