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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2007, 07:38 AM
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Default anybody have pics of dry sumped jbl?

looking for pics, how it fit, tank location, any helpful info. thanks.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-09-2007, 03:36 PM
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Vector 1,

We use a bespoke tank that fits in the passenger foot box. Here is a DWG of the unit.



If you have other questions I should be able to answer them for you.

Which car do you have?
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Old 10-09-2007, 09:33 PM
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i've followed jbl for quite some time and have seen these dwg's somewhere. my questions would be has it been used and how did it work out. difficulty fitting, etc. looks like it would take a good fabricator. is the inner baffle a screen or plate? drain hole through the floor? attachment to firewall? guess you don't have one sitting around? lol someone must have dry sumped their jbl, and if i had this info/their experience it would make mine easier if i go this route.
i purchased dave biele's jbl. also, while i have you, where is the ride heighth measured from? gonna do some track time next year and doing some sorting on the car.
thanks for the reply, looking forward to your knowledge.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:39 PM
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Under track conditions I have had no problems with pressure loss using a proper road race pan and a 3 quart Accusump. The dry sump would be appropriate for sustained high rpm / high speed cornering in race conditions. These canisters are very effective and many racers use them. Dave installed one on your car: www.accusump.com/

Make sure your oil pan has a gated (flapper) sump and a top just above the oil level. I think Dave has a Canton pan on your car. Armando at Armando's Oil pans does a good job and will build you what ever you need: www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/1624/

Also check the clearance at the bottom of the pickup and the pan. It should be between 1/4" and 3/8".

Ride height can be checked at the front and rear lower main cross tubes. The bottom of the chassis is flat and true but I use these two cross tubes when checking. In addition to ride height, I would corner scale the car, with your weight in the driver's seat and 1/2 tank of gas, after you get the ride height where you want it and castor/camber/toe is set.

Keep us posted on your progress,

John
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Old 10-10-2007, 12:17 PM
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thanks for the info. i was just over to the scca runoffs at topeka and looked at some of the gt1 cars. they don't have anything on jbl, except maybe aero.
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Old 10-10-2007, 05:51 PM
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Vector1,

The oil tank has been used and it works quite well. It is not the first dry sump tank that I have designed and I considered all the normal tank issues such de-aeration, clean venting, pickup coverage, and packaging.

Note: packaging is really very critical for a dry sump tank. The oil level in the tank needs to be as low as possible relative to the crank center line to avoid back filling of the oil pan through the pump when the engine is off. I have seen many tanks where this was not considered and it caused main seal leaks while sitting and in the worse case oil starvation on startup as most of the oil had drained back into the engine and the pickup in the tank was exposed. At startup no pressure until the scavenge pumps put some back into the tank. And the result is most often bearing failure from this short bit of time without pressure.

It has been used with a single stage pressure/4 stage scavenge pump with the scavenge out going through a 25 micron filter>through the cooler>back to the the tank. Note: going through the cooler also partially de-aerates the oil

In track testing of the chassis with this setup the unit saw steady state 1.6g cornering on a skid-pad for durations of 2>3 minutes with no oil pressure issues and >2 hours of endurance running at Willow Springs with lateral spikes of 2.9g and deceleration rates of 2g with no problems.

The only problem that occurred was loss of the oil cap due to improper latching (By me) and all this did was make a bit of a mess of the right side outer footbox area.

Of course we did have to spend about 30 minutes trying to find the cap as it came off in turn one and went a bit of a distance out into the desert and we did not have a spare.

After this incident the cap was installed and latched correctly and we also installed a safety chain to avoid wandering through the desert looking down for shiny bits.

The center divider is sheet with drain cutouts as shown. This allows a controlled drainback and de-aerates the oil.

Fabrication is actually quite simple and most any decent fab shop can make one up.

Mounting is done with a couple of bolt in clamps that are not shown on that drawing. The initial installation really should be done prior to engine install due to hose routing etc.

Ride height is measured from the bottom of the front lower crossmember (the one where the dampers are mounted) and the rear is measured from the rearmost part of the fuel cell surround. (The very last bit of metal rearward.)

Note: It is very important that the correct rake is maintained when setting ride height. The front must be .75 in. lower than the rear. If the front is 4 inches the rear must be at least 4.75. (Note: for road use 5in. front and 5.75in. rear is recommended minimums)

Also per John's discussion on pans. With a proper Road Race wet sump we have not seen any problems either.

There are many benefits of a dry sump system and one major one on the JBL is the bottom of the center tunnel can then be skinned per the design and subsequent interference drag is much reduced and some under-body negative pressure is developed. Note: you must run the small Tilton bell-housing as well.
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Old 10-11-2007, 04:25 PM
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thanks richard.
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Old 10-12-2007, 04:00 PM
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will a reverse mount starter fit or does it have to be in stock location?
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vector1
will a reverse mount starter fit or does it have to be in stock location?
Actually I do not know the answer. It would be my assumption that the tunnel is too tight for the starter to fit. Also the rear mount units are on the top of the bell housing if I recall. I cannot see any reason to mount something that heavy any higher than need be. (CG you know.)

John Marsey has the small bell housing with the starter going forward. That bell housing is above the bottom of the chassis.

You might wish to ask John about his setup. He has some really good experience with clutches etc.

John's bell housing
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:49 PM
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I did a lot of research on this subject way back when and I couldn’t find a reverse mount that would fit in the tunnel that used the 7.25”. I used the Tilton Low Ground Clearance “package” and have had no problems. It puts the starter closer to the pan rail but it does fit nicely. I don’t know if Tilton still makes the LGC for the small block Ford. You might call them and ask. They have very good tech help. Here is a similar setup for a chevy:
http://www.tiltonracing.com/content....st2&id=232&m=d

Here’s a used setup for Ford that uses a Quartermaster belhousing, also very good: http://www.gt1da.com/board/index.php?showtopic=2810

Quartermaster is another source:
http://www.racingclutches.com/index.phtml

I had to modify my input shaft / splines and shaft length to chevy specs in order to use chevy 7.25” discs. That’s the only way I could make it work with a Tilton-Ford belhousing and the TKO. The clutch works great as Richard will agree. He drove the car at Fernley Raceway.

Running this style clutch takes some finesse and if you can learn how to treat a triple or dual disc setup, it works just fine. They do have their advantages but they require finessing. My clutch has 4k miles on it and it feel just the way it did when it was brand new. But, I could also burn it up in one day if I abused it too. If you’re going to use the car on the street and/or track, just make sure you know what you’re getting yourself into.

To run a setup like this, you will need to make some changes. You will have to neutral balance your rotating assembly as the small flywheels are zero-balanced. You will have to run a zero-balanced damper. You will have to use a pedal stop on the clutch pedal as the diaphragm travel is critical: .060” to .090” is all it takes. Which means, your pedal travel is about 1/4” to 3/8” between engaged and disengaged.

I could go on for a while on this topic but this should get you started.

Good luck, John

Oh, one more thing, Mike Forte at Forte's Part Connection is familiar with these setups for Fords too: http://www.fortesparts.com/






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Last edited by jmarsey; 10-13-2007 at 10:11 PM..
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:32 AM
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richard, thanks for the info and pics. i was eyeballing the tunnel and would certainly be a tight fit with rear mount starter that fits on the side next to the tranny. they make some nice c/c setups with rear mount starter. oh well. also, you say no one is having problems with oil pressure. i have an armando oil pan with accusump, you think the accusump is still needed? i'm just not a fan of accusumps.

john, i have that clutch setup sitting around somewhere cept with the 5.5 disc. i don't believe tilton makes either one anymore. mine has the chevrolet tranny plate on it now so i don't know if they even still offer the different plates. got me all excited with the thread on the clutch for sale til i looked at the date. looks like you mounted your drivetrain with bellhousing and front engine plate, is that correct? who's that girl messing up your seats?

Last edited by vector1; 10-14-2007 at 08:44 AM..
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vector1
richard, thanks for the info and pics. i was eyeballing the tunnel and would certainly be a tight fit with rear mount starter that fits on the side next to the tranny. they make some nice c/c setups with rear mount starter. oh well. also, you say no one is having problems with oil pressure. i have an armando oil pan with accusump, you think the accusump is still needed? i'm just not a fan of accusumps.
Vector1,

I am also not a fan of Accusumps. I found that they do not provide enough flow in a oil pickup starvation event to do any good. The dynamics do not work quick enough.

For pre oiling I suppose they have benefit but I do not think they really cover this area well either. Piston skirts and cam lobes are the real problems on start up and I think that they do not provide enough oil at a high enough rate to cover these items.

But some may disagree and I could be quite wrong.
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Old 10-14-2007, 09:54 PM
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Hi Richard,

I know you are the man, but I have the Accusump plumed directly to the canton oil block with a -12 and 45# air pressure. With oil at operating temperature, the system will actually work well for a short amount of time. I don’t think it’s a fix for a poor pan or pickup design but it does work for a short duration in hard cornering. You know I’ve had some issues in this area along with running a fairly shallow sump. There’s just not enough room below the pan rail for a deeper sump and I won’t have it hanging down below the main frame rails. I’ve found that, for me and in this car, it is the next best thing to a dry sump. However, I do agree with you.

Vector,

Yes, motor is solid mounted via front motor plate and bellhousing. The tail mount is soft mounted as not to triangulate or stress the tranny / bellhousing.

That girl is messing up someone else’s seats, not mine.

John
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