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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2013, 03:13 PM
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Smile Hood Rivets

Thinking of adding rivets to the leading edge of my hood same as the comp cars & some SCs.

So need some advice from any Kirkham owners who have added hood rivets

1) Did you drill through into the steel frame and rivet through into the frame? If so, how did you stop the aluminium pulling down onto the frame and distorting the top surface of the hood? As per original cars to stop the hood skin being lifted from the steel frame at high speed.

or.....

2) Did you drill the aluminium hood skin only and then make some 'dummy' rivets by removing the Al rivet portion from the steel pin, cut the rivet to length so that it sits through the holes in the hood and just touches the steel frame, then glue into position? Fake style, just for show.

Any tips or photos would be appreciated.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:46 AM
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C'mon guys. I'm sure somebody must have put the hood rivets onto their Kirkham. Just want to know how it was done.
1) Same as the original comp cars and if so, how did you do it without distorting the hood skin as the pop rivet pulls it down onto the steel frame?
2) Fake style - simply drilling hole in the hood skin and glueing the rivet body into the holes.

Looking forward to any replies
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:57 AM
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Well I wish I had a kirkham but anyway. I would use an all aluminium rivet and since the body skin is laying on the tubing the deformation should be very little. Glue would be messy but the shortest rivet will pull with less force than a long rivet.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A98Coupe View Post
C'mon guys. I'm sure somebody must have put the hood rivets onto their Kirkham. Just want to know how it was done.
1) Same as the original comp cars and if so, how did you do it without distorting the hood skin as the pop rivet pulls it down onto the steel frame?
2) Fake style - simply drilling hole in the hood skin and glueing the rivet body into the holes.

Looking forward to any replies
The whole aluminum body is attached to steel substructure. Why do you think the hood skin rivets would be different? Are you using the correct length aluminum rivets?
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:39 AM
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Why not ask the guys that built your car??
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:01 AM
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First I would like to point out that the original cars had thinner and more prone to deformation aluminum than the Kirkhams use on their cars. Another point I would like to make is that the original cars that received the good rivets usually he deformation in the riveted areas once the rivets were installed, they were race cars and function ruled over appearance.
You could drill the hood skin only and use the shallowest all aluminum rivet to achieve the appearance of the original cars. You could also offset the rivet slightly to either side of the frame tube to achieve the same result as I had previously mentioned.
Another option which I have used with success is to drill the holes as per original and drill all the way into the frame tube, then you use an appropriate length all aluminum rivet, modify the aluminum rivet by disassembling the rivet and using side cutters slightly cut into the rivet mandrel near the head of the mandrel. By slightly weakening the mandrel the rivet will pull until the rivet starts compressing and then break at a lower grip strength but still achieve a fastened rivet assembly without overly distorting the aluminum hood skin.
It is a common misconception but none of the original cars 289 (except possibly very early cars) or 427 hood rivets were installed after the cars were painted, a correct rivet installation would have the rivets painted in the body color of the car.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:04 PM
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CompClassics

Thanks for your useful advice! The hood skin sits about 1/8" ~ 1/4" away from the steel hood frame, so riveting into the steel frame would cause some unsightly dimples in the skin. However, your suggestion to use an all aluminium (I presume this includes the mandrel), rivet and to weaken it so that it snaps before distorting the skin is a very good idea. Thank you.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:34 AM
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You could also set using spacers which then could be removed later. They were there to hold things down, again as stated above appearance was not a concern thus the rivets were painted and never covered when cars went to get sprayed. Function over looks.............

Its like the front spats on my car, rivets were exposed as it was an add on later down the road. My painter had trouble grasping that idea as they are a bit hobby shop which is exactly what these things were in the day.

This is how close original cars skins were to the frame, would make for little trouble......

Last edited by 1985 CCX; 02-28-2013 at 07:44 AM..
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:06 PM
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1985 CCX
Thanks for your suggestion. I did think about making a forked wedge to sit either side of the rivet before snapping the mandrel. The wedge could then be easily removed afterwards. My car is a brushed finish and I'm trying to get it looking as close to a comp car as possible, so I guess some distortion is OK, but just don't want to completely ripple the hood skin. Need to give it some more thought before taking the plunge!
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:20 AM
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Here's a photo......
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:41 PM
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Another pic of painted body color, correct as they are not unpainted...................
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:56 PM
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Another "in period" photo, CSX3018 and are Club Cobra's one and only Richard Messersmith!
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Old 03-01-2013, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CompClassics View Post
Another "in period" photo, CSX3018 and are Club Cobra's one and only Richard Messersmith!
That is far more accurate proof than modern photos of redone-redone-redone cars.

I was looking today for a vintage shop photo I think I have that shows hoods in the paint booth with scoops installed.
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:10 PM
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...another shot of CSX3018...

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Old 11-23-2015, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CompClassics View Post
First I would like to point out that the original cars had thinner and more prone to deformation aluminum than the Kirkhams use on their cars. Another point I would like to make is that the original cars that received the good rivets usually he deformation in the riveted areas once the rivets were installed, they were race cars and function ruled over appearance.
You could drill the hood skin only and use the shallowest all aluminum rivet to achieve the appearance of the original cars. You could also offset the rivet slightly to either side of the frame tube to achieve the same result as I had previously mentioned.
Another option which I have used with success is to drill the holes as per original and drill all the way into the frame tube, then you use an appropriate length all aluminum rivet, modify the aluminum rivet by disassembling the rivet and using side cutters slightly cut into the rivet mandrel near the head of the mandrel. By slightly weakening the mandrel the rivet will pull until the rivet starts compressing and then break at a lower grip strength but still achieve a fastened rivet assembly without overly distorting the aluminum hood skin.
It is a common misconception but none of the original cars 289 (except possibly very early cars) or 427 hood rivets were installed after the cars were painted, a correct rivet installation would have the rivets painted in the body color of the car.

Hi John

What would be the space between the rivets on a comp car?
The position is given by the frame the hood gets mounted on, but the space between would be interesting to understand as different information can be found on the internet (1 1/2 to 2 1/4"). 15-1-15; 12-1-12 pattern
Knowing that no car was identical to the other.

Many thanks
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Last edited by ALF; 11-23-2015 at 12:21 AM..
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:30 AM
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Glad I stumbled across this thread, could have been ugly had I not !!
Just painted and installed scoop with all rivets, and was about to start drilling the front rivet holes. Never noticed the gap between skin and tube. Thanks Alf ! Your thread saved my hood !!!
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Old 05-23-2016, 12:38 PM
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Hi John
Which size of aluminum rivets did you use?
4,8mm (0.189") alu flat head diameter x 20mm (0.984") alu pin length

Many thanks for the details
ALF
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Old 05-23-2016, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CompClassics View Post
Another "in period" photo, CSX3018 and are Club Cobra's one and only Richard Messersmith!
That is nearly the same pose/attitude my ex-wife took when I would go driving instead of whatever she had in mind. Notice the 'ex' in that statement!
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Old 05-23-2016, 01:12 PM
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I helped a friend drill for the rivets directly into the tube frame and must say it was most stressful and time consuming (car was already painted). Getting through the hood is easy. Getting the corresponding hole right on the money on a round tube that you can't see? Not so much. We did it, but takes patience.

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Old 05-23-2016, 02:38 PM
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