Senate Health Care Bill

[Excaliber]

Recognizing what's broke just makes sense. Welfare, Medicare, Health Care, what ever it might be. How to fix it is more complicated.

I like your latest quote Dan:

" The poor are to blame for being poor."

A ckassic example of the arrogance of to many in America. There are many reasons for the poor being the poor and the people are not always at fault.

Maricopa says:

Everyone gets 'covered' regardless of insurance or ability to pay

That's simply not true, but oft repeated by the conservative side. It's similiar to the oft repeated mantra of the Republican party that Democrats will "ration" Health Care. Health Care is rationed all ready, wake up and smell the coffee! Your not getting the best treatment, or ANY treatment, for that cancer unless you got insurance. You WILL die sooner than the guy in the next bed who DOES have insurance!

Recently an oncology department in Las Vegas closed, they went broke, leaving a multitude of "poor" without continued chemotherapy. It's happening all over the country, right now. In Hawaii, again recently, health care was threatened/denied for a group on KIDNEY DIALYSIS! Were talking mere DAYS before certain death without a quick resolution to the financing problem. These are not isolated incidents, health care IS being rationed all the country. The Republican party is in full blown denial of the problem.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Recognizing what's broke just makes sense. Welfare, Medicare, Health Care, what ever it might be. How to fix it is more complicated.

I like your latest quote Dan:
A ckassic example of the arrogance of to many in America. There are many reasons for the poor being the poor and the people are not always at fault.

Maricopa says:

That's simply not true, but oft repeated by the conservative side. It's similiar to the oft repeated mantra of the Republican party that Democrats will "ration" Health Care. Health Care is rationed all ready, wake up and smell the coffee! Your not getting the best treatment, or ANY treatment, for that cancer unless you got insurance. You WILL die sooner than the guy in the next bed who DOES have insurance!

Recently an oncology department in Las Vegas closed, they went broke, leaving a multitude of "poor" without continued chemotherapy. It's happening all over the country, right now. In Hawaii, again recently, health care was threatened/denied for a group on KIDNEY DIALYSIS! Were talking mere DAYS before certain death without a quick resolution to the financing problem. These are not isolated incidents, health care IS being rationed all the country. The Republican party is in full blown denial of the problem.

To say the present health care bill of lies is both bad and false is saying just that. It is not, as you liberals like to fabricate, a suggestion to do nothing. It is only a protest against the most wildly insane legislation ever proposed. Health care needs some work, lets fix it! The present "Bill of Bulging Bureaucrats" does nothing to fix health care. But it does cater to the ignorant masses willing to sell their votes for a piece of rotten cheese.

It is just more entitlement that we cannot pay for now and never will be able to pay for as it grows exponentially into a boondoggle heretofore unimaginable.

EVERYONE, EVERYONE, everyone, Demo. Repub, Ind. KNOWS the single biggest problem with insurance costs is malpractice suits. No liberal even acknowledges that that problem exists. Why? Money that is why. And that is all your liberal hopes and dreams are about, MONEY and POWER. Cover the uncovered? HAH! Democrat politicians could not care less if every poor person dropped dead tomorrow. As long as they could still count their votes and maintain the bureaucracies to serve the entitlements for those now deceased poor. They'd just establish a Bureau of Burial BS with a staff of 150,000 and a budget of $700 billion. And look for their next pork party!

Here's another quote you can't or won't use:

Insurance is NOT health care.

If health care were to actually be fixed, insurance would likely not be a problem anymore. How you think ruining the insurance industry will fix health care only the insane convoluted mind of a liberal could imagine.

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Example's are everywhere. 80 something year old lady on her death bed, get's a Pap Smear!

Sorry, Ernie--that's a ridiculous example. The only way an 80-year old lady is going to get a pap smear is if she goes to her gynecologist's office and asks for it.

Perhaps you could use the example that Obama provided in one of his teleprompter-led speeches over the summer--that physicians are performing unnecessary tonsillectomies on children--so the doctors can defraud the system and make money (physicians get reimbursed about $200 per tonsillectomy--so they need to do a heck of a lot of these procedures to get rich).

If you're going to argue your case for Obamacare, at least come up with some better fact-based examples.

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

In Hawaii, again recently, health care was threatened/denied for a group on KIDNEY DIALYSIS! Were talking mere DAYS before certain death without a quick resolution to the financing problem.

The vast majority of patients with end stage renal disease (the folks who require dialysis) are covered by Medicare. Did the aforementioned patients in Hawaii have an issue with Medicare--the government-run program for the elderly and disabled?

[Excaliber]

The only way an 80-year old lady is going to get a pap smear is if she goes to her gynecologist's office and asks for it.

As reported on "60 mintues", THAT is the source of the information. Along with the pap smear a small army of other health care professional running test after test, treatment after treatment and billing the Gov for each procedure. That report is entitled, "The Cost of Dieing".

This "vast majority" would that be 80%? More? Something less than a 100%? Therein lays the problem!

[Excaliber]

Las Vegas oncology:

"Dear patient, we regret to inform you that the Nevada Cancer Institute will no longer provide contract oncology services at University Medical Center," Sharp read.

Since December 31, there has been no chemotherapy for new outpatients.

Asked what reading this letter meant to her, Sharp told Pelley, "A death sentence."

Fact is, not all Americans have access to life saving medicine or medical care. There is no gentle way I can put this, "The Republican party is lieing to the American people." Conservatives are being duped. Talk about drinking the kool aid!

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

As reported on "60 mintues", THAT is the source of the information.

Ah, so it's got to be gospel if 60 Minutes reported on it; and this must be happening all over the country.
Yep, doctors are performing too many pap smears on 80-year old ladies--that's at the root of the problems with our health care system.

[Excaliber]

Indeed it is at the very heart of the root of the problem!

So WHY are all these specialist so eager to perform their duty on a dieing patient with ZERO chance of recovery? JUST to bill the Government? In some cases (the pap smear guy comes to mind) but not entirely. In many cases it's to cover their azz, along with the hospital, against potential law suits. That brings us back to "tort reform". Along with the way health care is administered and paid for.

[Maricopa]

Ah, so it's got to be gospel if 60 Minutes reported on it;

Of course! My favorite was the one where they taped the model rocket engines to the old guy's wheelchair to get it to blow up. Or was that Dateline?

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Fact is, not all Americans have access to life saving medicine or medical care.

Medicaid is the joint federal-state health care program for the poor--and it covers over 50 million people in the US. The benefits under Medicaid are very robust. Let's be clear--the poorest people in the country have access to very good care under the Medicaid program.

There are millions of homeless people in the US, as well. Would you like to buy them all houses? It's a grandiose idea, but it's not feasible.

Let's make no mistake about it, life can be very rough, and a lot of people have crappy lives. And we should all try to assist people who need help.

However, we cannot afford to pay for more and more of these types of social programs--it's got to stop somewhere. We are already doing irreparable harm to our country's future by running record deficits, quickly bankrupting our country, and forever indebting ourselves to the Chinese government.

Why do you think the Chinese government was lecturing Obama on fiscal responsibility?

[Excaliber]

I agree Stentor, we should try to assist people when it's feasible and reasonable, which is all I support as far as health care reform goes. Again, don't make the jump from there to buying all the poor a nice home or a new car. I base my opinons on reality, not chasing Big Foot or flying monkee's (unicorns or rainbows as some might suggest on the other hand).

We CAN provide decent health care for all US citizens, it IS within our means to do so. How that is to be done remains a healthy debate.

Part of the problem is the "poorest people in America" having access while many in the middle class fall through the cracks. They don't qualify for decent health care, I'd like to see that change.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I agree Stentor, we should try to assist people when it's feasible and reasonable, which is all I support as far as health care reform goes. Again, don't make the jump from there to buying all the poor a nice home or a new car. I base my opinons on reality, not chasing Big Foot or flying monkee's (unicorns or rainbows as some might suggest on the other hand).

We CAN provide decent health care for all US citizens, it IS within our means to do so. How that is to be done remains a healthy debate.

Part of the problem is the "poorest people in America" having access while many in the middle class fall through the cracks. They don't qualify for decent health care, I'd like to see that change.

Charities "assist" people. Governments support people in order to control people. Charities assist to the limit the charity can afford. Governments cannot afford to support people, no matter how much control it gives them over the people.

[Dan40]

After failing to prove that our health care system was not the very best in the world. CARE, not incidental sidebars. They tried accusing Doctors and hospitals of intentional overcharging. Thud went that BS.
Then it was covering the 20, 36, 45, or 47 million that had no access to health care. More total BS since they had easy access to health care, just did not have commercial insurance, just public health.
So the liberals have now settled on the insurance industry as the MAJOR villain of our health care system. Ignoring the FACT that exactly what the insurance industry is, it is, because politicians dictated what the insurance industry would be.
So because the insurance industry is bad, according to the liberal politicians, they want to pass 2000 plus pages of gobbledygook in order to have somewhere between 20 million and 36 million MORE PEOPLE COVERED by the same bad insurance industry.
Liberal logic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,or a new oxymoron!

[Excaliber]

In the above example I cited, as reported on 60 minutes, it is clear the many doctors and hospitals while not "technically overcharging" are carrying out unwarranted procedures that increase their bottom line.

We can dance around the terms but "over charging" is a good one.

For those that wish to diminish 60 Minutes as a worthless news show, good luck with that. It's an uphill battle at best. For instance, their report on the Las Vegas oncology closure was reported by numerous other new's outlets. In fact, I first heard about it outside of 60 Minutes and was surprised they covered the story in greater detail.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

In the above example I cited, as reported on 60 minutes, it is clear the many doctors and hospitals while not "technically overcharging" are carrying out unwarranted procedures that increase their bottom line.

We can dance around the terms but "over charging" is a good one.

For those that wish to diminish 60 Minutes as a worthless news show, good luck with that. It's an uphill battle at best. For instance, their report on the Las Vegas oncology closure was reported by numerous other new's outlets. In fact, I first heard about it outside of 60 Minutes and was surprised they covered the story in greater detail.

Typical liberal rationalization to obscure the truth. The extra procedures for which they actually receive little are to CYA against malpractice suits. A health care factor that the liberals ignore like it does not, did not, and never will exist. Yet it is very likely the single largest unnecessary health care expense.

A Doctor orders a $150.00 test on a $250.000.00 machine. The bill is $150.00. The insurance co. actually pays the Doc. about $70.00 [if Medicare the Doc gets maybe $50.] Out of that $50. or $70. the machine must be paid on. the tech must be paid, the electric bill, the office staff, and the malpractice premium. Take away the malpractice threat and it would all be $0's and the machine might cost $85,000. instead.

[Bobcat]

X2 on the CYA .... my oldest is a PA for three doctors in another state and they routinely order multiple tests to cover themselves . She had to do a deposition recently as they had been named in a BS lawsuit . If these extra tests hadn`t been done , their defense would be much more difficult . BTW , the patient didn`t follow the original advice given and then decided to sue when things didn`t work out .

[Excaliber]

Yup, totally agree.

Some of it is CYA and under our current guidelines neccessary. Tort reform would help address that part. Then there is the more troubling aspect in our example of the older lady, dieing. 27 different "specialists" were involved. A "pap smear" cannot be justified for CYA. A pychologist got his share as well, the patient was "depressed". Her reply, "I'm dieing, yeah, I'm depressed." DOH!!

We can address the CYA procedures, the current borderline fraud is more tricky (pap smear, pychologist, etc.) Outright fraud can and should be addressed by dramatically increasing the number of people who investigate such fraud. Currently they are over whelmed and can only look at the worst of the worst of cases while being aware of thousands more. In other words, Medicare/Medical payment stuctures alone would go a long way toward "health reform". If we do nothing else, lets start there!

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Yup, totally agree.

Some of it is CYA and under our current guidelines neccessary. Tort reform would help address that part. Then there is the more troubling aspect in our example of the older lady, dieing. 27 different "specialists" were involved. A "pap smear" cannot be justified for CYA. A pychologist got his share as well, the patient was "depressed". Her reply, "I'm dieing, yeah, I'm depressed." DOH!!

We can address the CYA procedures, the current borderline fraud is more tricky (pap smear, pychologist, etc.) Outright fraud can and should be addressed by dramatically increasing the number of people who investigate such fraud. Currently they are over whelmed and can only look at the worst of the worst of cases while being aware of thousands more. In other words, Medicare/Medical payment stuctures alone would go a long way toward "health reform". If we do nothing else, lets start there!

Yes indeed, lets start ANYWHERE sensible. And fix in a methodological manner, step by step. NOT the scrap everything and throw 4000 plus pages of BS and multi-Trillions of monies we don't have, at the problem.

All the present health care bills will accomplish is making their first premise, that our actual health CARE was lousy, come true!