Its over, the Dems win

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Dan40

...Agreeing that some reform in health care is necessary should be nearly unanimous. But that is in fixing the few problems in the best health care system on the planet. Fixing with logic, reason, and results orientated. NOT scrapping an excellent system so the worst dregs of society can have insurance they can't pay for, and putting everyone's health under Government control. Our HEALTH CARE SYSTEM HAS one MAJOR PROBLEM, COST. Does it take a year of BS and 4000 pages to adress cost? NO! Its all about control, NOT fixing anything!...

***

...So now they have passed a Senate health INSURANCE bill, NOT HEALTH CARE, claiming all the problems not solved by 100 years of very close insurance regulation , will be solved by even more regulation by the same politicians. I am embarrassed by the national stupidity...

***

WHEN are you going to address the simple FACT that insurance company rates and profits are and have been 100% CONTROLLED,REGULATED, AND APPROVED, by politicians of both parties.

And PROFIT is one of the best words in our language, without profit and the desire for profit, we would not exist.
And if the liberal dreamers get their way, we won't exist.

Dan,

I see some common ground here. I agree cost is all of it, which prompted me to point out what a disproportionate amount of my (and yours too, probably) monthly outgo goes to healthcare now. I think the "change" will be a useless and possibly damaging execise. Not sure I agree we currently have the best system, but we no doubt do have some outstanding people in the medical field.

Agree it's become an insurance issue rather than actual healthcare. It is embarassing. But deregulation starting with Carter, escalating with Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush, has nearly brought this country to its knees. Something has become fishy with letting the corporate union foxes self-guard the henhouse. I don't see it as any different than letting labor unions self-regulate themselves. Where would we be?

Regulation is what governments are for and it's about time they started doing it right. Probably ain't gonna happen though; you're right about that. Somebody is pocketing a fortune and they want to keep it that way.

PROFIT is a good word in our language, but what the H is profit? Is it money one makes off other people because they somehow foolishly lost it? Or is it something never lost that occurs because somebody worked hard to get it? I think REWARD FOR HARD WORK is a better set of words.

I don't mind the few bucks that bottom feeder welfarees cost me. But I'm sick of lazy welfare recipients at the top that take fully half of everything I work for. 1% of America owns 51% of the wealth and it's been growing. I assume always taking 51% of the pie, or better, is how it's done. It's often called profit. Maybe excess profit would be more accurate.

Have a great holiday, everyone!
Wes

...

[jolsen42]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Interesting that the New York Times poll BACKED UP the Robert Woods poll. I don't know, maybe the Times are hard left leaning as well?

You simply can't deny that MOST Americans, by far, support some kind of Health Care reform. Unless your swimming in the De-Nile "ocean".




And yes, the Government can "force" you to buy insurance under the Commerce clause.

Good Christ man, how do you come up with this stuff. Robert Wood Johnson is non-partisian?
The New York Times is not a hard left leaning Publication?
And lastly the government can "force" you to buy insurance under the Commerce Clause? Maybe they will force you, but there is nothing in the Constitution allowing them to.

Commerce Clause- Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3

To regulate commerce with foreign nations and among the several states,
and with Indian tribes.

Nothing about health care. John O Have a Merry Christmas

[Excaliber]

man, how do you come up with this stuff.

Good stuff aint it? It's the sugar coating on my corn spread around the entrance to my abode. Here, have some more (but watch out for the Unicorn, he's got a nasty horn).

Well if the group doesn't like old Robert or the Times I guarantee there are plenty of other polls that will show the same thing. The VAST majority of Americans support some kind of Health Care Reform. Man, can't you see that???

To regulate commerce with foreign nations and among the several states,
and with Indian tribes.

And your point is? Sounds pretty clear to me, "regulate commerce". What?

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

When it comes to FACTS, that's a different story! Now to clairify your ranking on the most profitable industries, the THE FORTUNE 500, we find Life and Health Care Insurance at NUMBER NINE! Among that group we find AFLAC at #3, by the way. Now further down the chart we find "Managed Care", they come in at #28.
So your right, my listing at #35 was incorrect, thanks for pointing out it's really NUMBER NINE! TOP TEN baby, TOP TEN!

Ex, still not sure to what ranking you are referring. Here's a link to Fortune's 2009 ranking of the most profitable industries. As you will see, there are a variety of ways to measure "profitability." When looking at one of the most common metrics--return on revenues--"Insurance and Managed Care" was number 35 out of 53 industries (with profits representing 2.2% of revenues). This hardly suggests that these companies are printing money.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...tries/profits/

[Excaliber]

That looks like one of the charts I saw when I first reported #35. Same type of chart, perhaps using different data points, showed #9 and #28.

This is a good example of how miss leading "polls" and "charts" can be and why they should be taken with a grain of salt. In almost every case you could find a poll, chart, a pundits blog, a respected news source or some other "worthy" article to back up what ever point you are trying to make.

On the internet, you can find it! Which is primarily why I don't put a lot of stock in poll numbers. Unfortunately they DO have significant influence on the politicians, much more than they should is my concern. Kind of a "short sided" approach to "investment" if you would. I prefer to think long term, not short term. I think the short term thinking is a large part of our current economic crisis.

No matter how you rank it, any company would LOVE to be in the Top 50 profit earners in the US, heck I'd settle for #51 in a heart beat!

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

No matter how you rank it, any company would LOVE to be in the Top 50 profit earners in the US, heck I'd settle for #51 in a heart beat!

Ernie, the aforementioned Fortune list is a ranking of industries by profit; not a ranking of companies.

If you are settling for number 51 in the ranking, your profit--as expressed as a percentage of revenues--would be negative 10%; so you'd be losing money.

Incidentally, the Fortune 500 is a ranking of the largest companies in the US. The list to which I attached a link is a separate ranking of entire industries (not individual companies).

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Stentor

Ernie, the aforementioned Fortune list is a ranking of industries by profit; not a ranking of companies.

If you are settling for number 51 in the ranking, your profit--as expressed as a percentage of revenues--would be negative 10%; so you'd be losing money.

Incidentally, the Fortune 500 is a ranking of the largest companies in the US. The list to which I attached a link is a separate ranking of entire industries (not individual companies).

Facts are a waste of time. E answers all facts with 100% liberal biased ideology or ill considered opinions.
Facts are just inconvenient to him and are ignored like actual history is ignored by the liberal dreamers.

[Excaliber]

Here's the bottom line about Health Insurance industry profits.

There among the highest in the nation. I'm laughing at you guy's defending the poor Insurance folks just struggling to get by.

...Ernie closes the gate have successfully boon doggled the conservatives into supporting a cause no one even gives a rip about. Those poor helpless starving insurance companies. Now how pathetic an argument is that?

Mount's his trusty steed, Unicorn, and rides off under the rainbow. Merry Christmas to all!

[Ralphy]

So if you believe this, do you support an open market for insurance companies to compete across state lines? As the Republicans promote?

[Ralphy]

Ex I found a great site for you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=105x2169192

[Excaliber]

I don't support it all, sure SOUNDS like a good plan, but it does little or nothing to improve the lot of those who can't afford Health Coverage all ready. If company X can offer a policy $5 a month cheaper than company Z it won't matter to the consumer that can't afford a plan anyway! In fact, there is no gaurentee rates would go down, they could go UP!

RISK IS RISK, no matter where you live. The poor, abused, broken down and kicked around insurance companies will still use the same charts, the same risk factors to determine cost/profit ratio's. Got a pre-existing condition? Your still screwed, in or out of state. Can't afford Health Insurance because your barely able to make rent every month? Saving $5 or $10 a month by buying insurance out of state won't make a difference, your still screwed.

I have seen very little the Republicans have offered in the way of real reform. And frankly, it's starting to piss me off. All they have done is whine and cry and try to stop reform at all costs. WHEN Health Care Reform IS passed and it proves out to be a good idea (which it will) Republicans will be remembered for what they did. Drag their feet, block reform, point fingers and call anyone who opposes them "Nazi's". Really, it is pathetic and they WILL be remembered for it.

[Excaliber]

There is ONE way opening up the markets across state lines could work.

Strict Federal oversight, which the Repubs will no doubt want to shoot down. It's what they do, stop, block, vote against, it's all they know HOW to do!

[Ralphy]

Wow Ex, I was responding to your comment about excessive profits. I proposed increased competition. Just can't see how you missed that and went on a regulation tangent.

Nazi's? Isn't that a word the Dems have been throwing out?

[Excaliber]

That's a word to often used by right wingers and tea baggers actually.

Well the proposed competition is a bit of a sore point with me, sorry for the harsh reaction, you found a button.

Opening up the markets was first proposed by the Repubs and is now gaining some support within the Dem camp. But I see major problems with how the idea came about and how it's being handled. As offered by the Repub's it flat out ridiculous, it offers ZERO change in terms of Health Reform and could well lead to increased premiums. Not well thought out to say the least. Now the Dem's recently seem to be embrassing the idea, perhaps a chance to reach across the aisle?

But if the idea is going to work it will need some pretty tight and complicated regulations. Which the Repubs will balk at and the whole issue will dissolve into another brawl and distract from the work at hand, real reform. Competition, even well regulated, offers such small savings (if any) it's just not worth the effort. Perhaps as a "tuning factor" after the motor is built, like adjusting the fuel air for a smoother idle. But if you got the wrong parts in the motor, it won't mean nothing.

Seriously, the Repubs need to get off their butt and help offer some reasonable suggestions to help with real reform. If they don't do that soon... Health Care Reform WILL pass, it will be embraced by the general population. The Repubs are going to be remembered as the bad guys on this issue.

[Ralphy]

You keep trying to sound like your in the middle. But there you go again, Tea Baggers? Thinking you listen to the left so much you do not even know the right name.

[Excaliber]

Where I stand is totally dependant on the issue at hand. I can be right, left or middle.

Based on this typical "Tea Leaves" protest sign, I used the correct terminology. They are a fringe radical hate group, soon to flame out or be absorbed by the GOP. A party built on the principles of hate cannot endure.

[Ralphy]

Now there you go again. "They are a fringe radical hate group, soon to flame out or be absorbed by the GOP. A party built on the principles of hate cannot endure."

You can't stop!

[Ralphy]

Let's see you used the words Nazi's, Tea Baggers, Fringe Radical Hate Groups? Just who are the hatters? Your side has been using these terms for decades against the right.

It's like my mom used to say, when you point how many fingers are pointing at you! These are ordinary people you point out, however the left side politicians use these term loosely. Then you search images of the worst?

Just fricken wow!

[Ralphy]

I heard an estimate 800,000 showed in DC. For every one that showed how many more wished they could have gone. Ten maybe twenty maybe fifty? People are fed up with the tax and spend. Oh, and Obama did stand on this platform.



quoted Dan Bana, a spokesman for the National Parks Service, as saying that the 9/12 protest was "a record ... We believe it is the largest event held in Washington, D.C., ever."
http://wizbangblog.com/content/2009/...arch-in-dc.php

[Excaliber]

I offer my opinion on this issue as a bi-partisan. I don't believe a group, movement, party, etc. will be able to sustain itself when it's foundation is based on hate. Regardless of it's size. How would you describe the fellow holding up the Obama sign? He doesn't represent the principles I believe this country was founded on. He certainly doesn't speak for the majority of American citizens. He isn't "main stream", his message is one of hate (and Nazi influence), one must conclude: He's a fringe radical hate monger, his message, what ever it is, is immediately lost because of his sign. Tea Leave's would be wise to clean up their act if they have any hope of real change.

I don't have to hate them to have an opinion of them. I don't have to show them respect, and won't, unless they have earned it. I speak of the "group", the "movement", there are always good people and bad within any particular group.