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My point about the Ferrari vs Vette was a little tongue in cheek, but not totally. Long schooling and high schooling bill's justify a very good wage if you can command it. One of the problems I've been hearing about with traditional family doctors type practice is that they are a dieing breed. Most Med Students are going into some kind of "specialist" field. Perhaps in part BECAUSE of Medicare, Medicaid, Medical issues equaling lower pay? Of course the specialist fields pay better and that alone may be the primary factor.
At any rate, the lower numbers of general practioners is in decline and health care reform is not going to help change that fact. So, it is a dilemma... Going broke? Making less that what they are "entitled to" or less than they deserve/want is a more likely scenario. |
There must be some sort of statistics available for the average pay that doctors receive. I am skeptical about any doctor earning less than $100K if he/she is putting in a normal number of hours in Canada or the US. Many health professionals, including doctors, leave Canada for the bigger pay in the US.
I know that one of the big expenses for MDs in the US is the cost of malpractice insurance. Wayne |
A very quick search turned up the following average annual salaries for the US in 2008.
General Practicioners $161,490 Surgeons $206,770 Ob, Gyn $192,780 Physicians & Surgeons, all other $165,000 These are average salaries. Wayne |
80% of Americans believe they are in the middle class, which is really tough to define but the middle means about 50%, not 80%. :)
The average wage for a working man (blue collar) is $32,000 a year. |
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Doctors are entitled to a reasonable wage according to their skills, training and what the public is willing to pay for their services. No different than anybody else in that regard. If Medicare is going to pay less, the doctors can opt out. When and if those rates become the norm, well, things are just tough all over. :)
My point about the middle class is, I repeat, virtually EVERYONE thinks they ARE the "middle class". That would include many doctors, lawyers and indian chiefs. Logically, this cannot be if it's the "middle". If we are going to add "benefits" to the working mans salary, then let's add "benefits" to the doctor's salaries listed above. To put the working man's wage in a different perspective I'll cite the US Census Bureau: "Average American makes $27,590.16 a year or $13.26 an hour." I guess blue color workers make slightly more? Actually, it is difficult to nail down figures such as these, or for doctors. Many different sources measuring many different ways. Perhaps some DO calculate benefits, others not. Suffice to say, doctors make considerably more than the average American. That's just a fact, good, bad or ugly, it is what it is. |
One foot in boiling water and one foot in icy water, on AVERAGE, you're comfortable.
Average blue collar worker makes $32,000. Probably has just under a 12 grade education and DOES NOT work a full 8 hour day. AVERAGE Doctor has a very expensive education of college, med school and residency, putting him/her into their late 20's before they start to make money. Also they do work hard, probably too hard for our best benefit. Days start at 6AM and go till 5PM with a constant stream of patients all day. Plus they are employers of 2 to 10 people and they pay a massive premium for malpractice insurance alone. Don't know that I'd have any interest in living their lives. |
Many Union and Government workers are up in arms about the Health Care reform for one simple reason, THEY are a target for more taxes. NOT the "average working man".
These two groups, Union and Government workers, are OFTEN PORTRAYED as the MIDDLE CLASS and the right wing is all upset these "poor" workers will bear the brunt of the tax. How? These two groups, especially auto marnufacturers, have the BEST Health Care plans money can buy! About $23,000 a year in health benefits ALONE. These are the so called "Cadillac Plans" the Government want's to tax. Essentially taxing the "benefit". Every state (and that's a lot) that I've ever lived and worked in had one thing in common when it came to job's. It was universally recognized that if you could land a Union or Government job that was the cat's meow. You were in high cotton. You had made it. Sorry, Union class and Government workers with Cadillac Health Care plans don't have a freakin' clue what the middle class life is like. Give up your excellent health care and start working for $13 an hour and you might get a clue! Until then, screw 'em, tax the hell out of that Cadillac plan, I don't care where you work or who provides it. It's so far beyond the reach of the average working man it's nothing but a dream to them. |
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http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes_nat.htm#b00-0000 |
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The liberals called! They demand you burn your membership card forthwith~ You are now re-classified as an Independent/Conservative. The GOP will be mailing you contribution solicitations SOON. |
Dan, I totally deny that of course. I'm a flamin' Liberal riding a muti-colored Unicorn, honest... :)
Anthony, as I stated earlier these numbers are really difficult to nail down due to the various methods of measurment. Take "average" for instance. A small percentage of the population makes X number of times the rest of the population makes, which then tend to scew the "average" or "mean" wage. It would get WAY to involved to break it down to individual groups but from my research of various methods and sources I believe it is accurate to say: The typical blue collar worker, working a typical 8 hour day, 40 hour week makes about $30,000 a year. Interesting comment about education, suggestion being this group likely has no more than a high school education. I might pursue that aspect of my own personal "research" and look a little closer at the demographics, family size, education, etc. The "middle class" remains a very fuzzy and difficult to nail down definition. |
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The average is what it is. Maybe you don't understand what the "average" is? I don't know about you, but I think I learned that in around 6th grade. Are you trying to re-write mathematics ? I know blue collar workers who make $80,000 /yr + benefits. Believe what you want to believe. That's the problem with the Government, too many people believe what they want to believe and base their decisions on their belief rather than the facts. |
The "average" wage is a miss leading indicator of the reality of the middle class. A concept you seem to be stuggling with.
The UAW "average" wage is $65 to $75 an hour, including benefits, depending on your source. Thats about 115-120K a year. UAW and Republicans consider this group to be part of the middle class. They too are struggling with the concept. The problem is, "simple math" goes right over their head. Let's review: Middle is self explanatory. 50% above, 50% below. Did you flunk 6th grade? :) |
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Ernie, I am not wanting to get into your and Anthony's discussion, but your math confuses me if I am reading it correctly. How can you have 50% above middle class and 50% below and still have a middle class? That is 100% of the people and leaves nothing for any middle class. Ron :confused: |
That is the fundamental question that makes a definition of the "middle class" an illusive goal. The Government loves to refer to the "middle class" so they reach the maximum number of people. Like, "These tax adjustments will help the middle class." Rather than say, "These tax adjustments will help those making between $25,000 and
$75,000." To put a "number" on it excludes folks below or above, so you shroud it in mystery by calling it "middle class". Again, 80 to 90% of the population believes THEY are middle class! Like you said Ron, that math confuses me. :) It is noteworthy that for the most part the Government carefully avoids a definition of middle class. MY DEFINITION, based on MY research sets that mark at or below those folks earning $20 an hour. Those actually making $20 an hour are a SHRINKING group, by the way. Less than $20 is rapidly becoming the norm. |
From the Office of Occupational Employment and Wages:
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The OEW numbers comprise about a 1,000 different occupations. Here is an example of those occupations, EACH ONE earning right at $32,000 a year. Forest and conservation technicians Floor sanders and finishers Medical transcriptionists Electronic Home entertainment equipment installers and repairers Automotive glass installers and repairers Printing machine operators Semiconductor processors Dental assistants Parking enforcement workers Structural metal fabricators and fitters Loan interviewers and clerks Bookkeeping, accounting and auditing clerks Log graders and scalers Metal pourers and casters Engine and other machine assemblers Opticians, dispensing Broadcast technicians Jewelers and precious stone and metal workers Meter reader, utilities Painters, construction and maintenance |
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The "average" wage, is the "average" wage, whatever it may be, determined from elementary mathematics. I think you have the problem understanding what the "average" is. You made the connection between "average wage" and middle class, not me or anyone else $65-$75 / hr is actually like $130-$150 / yr. It's simple math, your calculations, as usual, are incorrect. Quote:
I can see why you're divorced. If I was married to you, the only way I would keep you around is if you had a tight A-hole. Squeeeeelllllll.:eek: |
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Anothony you'd make a great politician. Your numbers include a much larger percentage of the population, the classic "middle class" lie politicians love to use to reach the maximum number of voters. |
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All politicians lie, no matter the party, except for maybe some of the libertarians. I skeptical of every statement ever made, until proven otherwise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhhkF3dqXR0 |
The question of who comprises the middle class really is an important issue as Health Care reform, taxes, hospitals rejecting Medicare patients and other costs begin to come into focus.
As Ron noted, the math confuses him, and pretty much everyone else, myself included. There is no strict methodology to come to a conclusion. A "range" of incomes is the only way. What comprises the range is subject to interpretation. I'd say this about that. If you, as a single individual, are making $20 an hour or better, your doing OK compared to "most" folks in these United States. |
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