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VRM 05-29-2007 09:52 PM

I was listening to some right wing talk radio the other day (Limbaugh is a moron) and they were saying that global warming is not caused by humans and that eventually the climate will spin out of control and that there is nothing we can do about it.

So when has the climate ever been IN control??:LOL: :LOL:

Steve

Jamo 05-29-2007 10:30 PM

Yup...using one square of toilet paper is much more logical.

VRM 05-29-2007 10:50 PM

Don't worry Jamo, some 'scientist' interviewed on a local news program also said the same 'out-of-control' thing after explaining how most of Al Gores science was accurate. Always gives me a good chuckle regardless of what idiot says it.

And I was curious to see who was going to offer the first pointless counterpoint demonstrating how bad the lefties are in order to try and mitigate my point.:p

Steve

Jamo 05-29-2007 10:59 PM

Asscuse me, but it is not a pointless counterpoint when you consider a single sheet of tp and my ass.

It is a pointless counterpoint when it is to counter a pointless point.

VRM 05-29-2007 11:09 PM

Can we get a puke smiley? Your ass and TP are nothing I want to think about.:CRY:

So you got the point then. Bravo.:LOL:

Jamo 05-29-2007 11:11 PM

We do try to stay up with you, Steve. ;)

BMK 05-30-2007 03:59 AM

Mmm think this 'Thread' is turning to *hit....:eek:

bomelia 05-30-2007 06:26 AM

I think Limbaugh is a genious. Bill Marh (sp??)... now he is a smart moron.

aharris 05-30-2007 07:24 AM

Bernie
Quote:

Andrew,

Can you please give me a scientific explanation of how you would have stopped any one of these five using technology that is currently available to us.

Methinks you have a God complex.

Bernie
What I meant was that we, as a species, don't fare well in a competitive environment where hair, teeth and claws are obligatory. We use tools to manipulate our environment. When the climate changes, unless we can find ways to exist, we are facing extinction. Some plant species, bacteria and cockroaches may be competitive.

There are however some suggestions that we as a species can alter our biosphere. There is a great deal of theory on terraforming that may have relevance. The cost, however, is our current way of life.

Andrew

bomelia 05-30-2007 07:58 AM

Cows alter the biosphere (and all wild plant eating animals). In fact all animals alter the biosphere.

Natural fires alter the biosphere. In fact, my biosphere sucks right now. Fires down in Georgia and Florida are sending smoke so thick (northern Alabama) that visibility is way under 1 km.

Just curious, anybody north of me seeing this?

Mike

edit: http://www.firedetect.noaa.gov/viewer.htm

VRM 05-30-2007 08:44 AM

Mike,
My wife was down in FL recently for a bunch of design conferences. She was buzzing back and forth between Tampa and Orlando, and she said that the smoke was crazy thick. She kind of liked it when she first got there because it smelled like camping, but she got sick of it after a couple of days.

Hope it clears up for you soon.

I'm even going to refrain from making any sort of comment about you living in a haze...:LOL:

Steve

bomelia 05-30-2007 09:54 AM

Better than being frozen

chopper 05-30-2007 04:07 PM

Pelosi's Great Global Warming tour:

http://newsbusters.org/node/13085

Save us.

392cobra 05-30-2007 06:25 PM

I Was On the Global Warming Gravy Train
By David Evans
Posted on 5/28/2007


I devoted six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian government to estimate carbon emissions from land use change and forestry. When I started that job in 1999 the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty conclusive, but since then new evidence has weakened that case. I am now skeptical.
In the late 1990s, this was the evidence suggesting that carbon emissions caused global warming:

Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, proved in a laboratory a century ago.

Global warming has been occurring for a century and concentrations of atmospheric carbon have been rising for a century. Correlation is not causation, but in a rough sense it looked like a fit.

Ice core data, starting with the first cores from Vostok in 1985, allowed us to measure temperature and atmospheric carbon going back hundreds of thousands of years, through several dramatic global warming and cooling events. To the temporal resolution then available (data points more than a thousand years apart), atmospheric carbon and temperature moved in lockstep: they rose and fell together. Talk about a smoking gun!

There were no other credible causes of global warming.


This evidence was not conclusive, but why wait until we are absolutely certain when we apparently need to act now? So the idea that carbon emissions were causing global warming passed from the scientific community into the political realm. Research increased, bureaucracies were formed, international committees met, and eventually the Kyoto protocol was signed in 1997 to curb carbon emissions.

"Correlation is not causation, but in a rough sense it looked like a fit."
The political realm in turn fed money back into the scientific community. By the late 1990s, lots of jobs depended on the idea that carbon emissions caused global warming. Many of them were bureaucratic, but there were a lot of science jobs created too.

I was on that gravy train, making a high wage in a science job that would not have existed if we didn't believe carbon emissions caused global warming. And so were lots of people around me; there were international conferences full of such people. We had political support, the ear of government, big budgets. We felt fairly important and useful (I did anyway). It was great. We were working to save the planet!

But starting in about 2000, the last three of the four pieces of evidence above fell away. Using the same point numbers as above: Better data shows that from 1940 to 1975 the earth cooled while atmospheric carbon increased. That 35 year non-correlation might eventually be explained by global dimming,only discovered in about 2003.
The temporal resolution of the ice core data improved. By 2004 we knew that in past warming events, the temperature increases generally started about 800 years before the rises in atmospheric carbon.[There were some major papers out on this immediately following the 2001 IPCC Report!! And there were charts published showing this relationship right after the 1995 IPCC Report. This guy wasn't paying attention or is more likely providing excuses for having just seen the light. Better late than never.] Causality does not run in the direction I had assumed in 1999 — it runs the opposite way!

It took several hundred years of warming for the oceans to give off more of their carbon. This proves that there is a cause of global warming other than atmospheric carbon. And while it is possible that rising atmospheric carbon in these past warmings then went on to cause more warming ("amplification" of the initial warming), the ice core data neither proves nor disproves this hypothesis.

There is now a credible alternative suspect. In October 2006 Henrik Svensmark showed experimentally that cosmic rays cause cloud formation. Clouds have a net cooling effect, but for the last three decades there have been fewer clouds than normal because the sun's magnetic field, which shields us from cosmic rays, has been stronger than usual. So the earth heated up. It's too early to judge what fraction of global warming is caused by cosmic rays.


There is now no observational evidence that global warming is caused by carbon emissions. You would think that in over 20 years of intense investigation we would have found something. For example, greenhouse warming due to carbon emissions should warm the upper atmosphere faster than the lower atmosphere — but until 2006 the data showed the opposite, and thus that the greenhouse effect was not occurring! In 2006 better data allowed that the effect might be occurring, except in the tropics.

The only current "evidence" for blaming carbon emissions are scientific models Historically, science has not progressed by calculations and models, but by repeatable observations. [!!!! A key.] Some theories held by science authorities have turned out to be spectacularly wrong: heavier-than-air flight is impossible, the sun orbits the earth, etc. For excellent reasons, we have much more confidence in observations by several independent parties than in models produced by a small set of related parties!

Let's return to the interaction between science and politics. By 2000 the political system had responded to the strong scientific case that carbon emissions caused global warming by creating thousands of bureaucratic and science jobs aimed at more research and at curbing carbon emissions.

"Science has not progressed by calculations and models, but by repeatable observations."
But after 2000 the case against carbon emissions gradually got weaker. Future evidence might strengthen or further weaken it. At what stage of the weakening should the science community alert the political system that carbon emissions might not be the main cause of global warming? [a lot of the "science community" have been !! Starting, at least, in the late 1980s.]

None of the new evidence actually says that carbon emissions are definitely not the cause of global warming, there are lots of good science jobs potentially at stake, and if the scientific message wavers then it might be difficult to later recapture the attention of the political system. What has happened is that most research efforts since 1990 have assumed that carbon emissions were the cause, and the alternatives get much less research or political attention.

Unfortunately politics and science have become even more entangled. Climate change has become a partisan political issue, so positions become more entrenched. Politicians and the public prefer simple and less-nuanced messages. At the moment the political climate strongly blames carbon emissions, to the point of silencing critics.

The integrity of [some of] the scientific community will win out in the end, following the evidence wherever it leads. But in the meantime, the effect of the political climate [and the actions and positions of many in the "scientific community" !!] is that most people [and many, many "scientists", intentionally] are overestimating the evidence that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming.

I recently bet $6,000 that the rate of global warming would slow in the next two decades. Carbon emissions might be the dominant cause of global warming, but I reckon that probability to be 20% rather than the 90% the IPCC estimates. [The ill-informed die hard -- he still 1/5th believes the cause is carbon, notwithstanding what he wrote above and the glaring science published over the last 20 + years.]


I worry that politics could ["could" ????] seriously distort the science. Suppose that carbon taxes are widely enacted, but that the rate of global warming increase starts to decline by 2015. The political system might pressure scientists to provide justifications for the taxes.

Imagine the following scenario. Carbon emissions cause some warming, maybe 0.05C/decade. But the current warming rate of 0.20C/decade is mainly due to some natural cause, which in 15 years has run its course and reverses. So by 2025 global temperatures start dropping. In the meantime, on the basis of models from a small ["small"?? Hundreds, with the whole UN, governments worldwide, including U.S. etc., behind them.] group of climate scientists but with no observational evidence (because the small warming due to carbon emissions is masked by the larger natural warming), the world has dutifully paid an enormous cost to curb carbon emissions.

Politicians, expressing the anger and apparent futility of all the unnecessary poverty and effort, lead the lynching of the high priests with their opaque models. Ironically, because carbon emissions are raising the temperature baseline around which natural variability occurs, carbon emissions might need curbing after all. Maybe. The current situation is characterized by a lack of observational evidence, so no one knows yet.

Some people take strong rhetorical positions on global warming. But the cause of global warming is not just another political issue, subject to endless debate and distortions. The cause of global warming is an issue that falls into the realm of science, because it is falsifiable. [Actually, it's a belief system, and not falsifiable to many of them. Many are even pushing to have fellow scientists defrocked, expelled and otherwise punished, inquisition-like, professionally.] No amount of human posturing will affect what the cause is. It just physically is there, and after sufficient research [temperature recordings that can't be fudged, a coming new "ice age", etc.] and time we will know what it is.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Evans, a mathematician, and a computer and electrical engineer, is head of Science Speak.

aharris 05-31-2007 08:43 AM

"Global warming" should more correctly be termed "climate change" as some area's are going to be colder, some warmer, some wetter, some drier.

There is much too much simplistic thinking on this issue. The earth is a massive intricate system in delicate balance with multiple and inter-dependant factors. The recent change in climate is dramatic based on historical data. Where it is all going who knows. Are we as a species wholly or partly or minimally responsible. Whatever the case, we are running out of fossil fuels, fresh water and stressing our renewable resources. Let's not get distracted while the house burns around us.

A

chopper 05-31-2007 10:17 AM

Not to worry. The Russkies have it all in hand:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070530/66362712.html

All we need to do is figure out how to get a million tons of aerosol spray sulfur into the upper atmosphere without using carbon-fueled aircraft. No problemo.

Really, you can't make up stuff like this.

HI Cobra 05-31-2007 10:49 AM

Haven't we had a problem in the past with sulfur emmissions in the atmosphere combining with rain to form sulfuric acid "acid rain" which is
dissolving buildings, statues etc. Sounds like a plan to me to further muck
things up. They are talking about that hot summer - but what about all
the snow storms that seem to follow Pelosi around over there?:LOL:

Ron61 05-31-2007 01:54 PM

Flip,

You forgot to mention that both Mars and Pluto are getting warmer. Blame Mars on the Rover, but what do we blame Pluto on? And by the way, maybe Hawaii should plug all of those volcanoes so they can't keep spewing stuff into the air. :LOL:

Ron :D

Cobrabill 05-31-2007 02:26 PM

Take the Global warming test



http://www.geocraft.com:80/WVFossils...est/start.html

HI Cobra 05-31-2007 04:30 PM

Interesting and informative - thanks for posting it.

Ron,
We really don't want to try to cork these volcanoes - wouldn't want another
Mt St Helens over here! Pluto? Maybe Gore has the answer - he did invent
the internet.:LOL:


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