No Amnesty part 2

[Jamo]

You still don't know how to read...

If the liberal/ACLU/Demos fight a federal ID with a pic...do you really believe they're going to allow thumbprints or retina scans? Sitting in a clean room or typing away at code has sheltered you from the real world with real problems.

As I noted above, you can't demand small employers (80% of our businesses) to have the technology you think they should just because it looks cool on your screen or gives you a woody because of the technology. Currently, an HR person has to look at a variety of different IDs (the employee gets to choose what to use)...DLs, student IDs, etc. They cannot be experts on every type, and most offer little forgery protections. A single federal ID makes it easier on everyone, can include the obvious protections we use in currency, and makes it easier on enforcement agencies who know what to look for (I'll take the Secret Service and FBI anyday for tracking down forgery operations than various state police). A contractor, farmer, lawn care service, forestry operation, etc. all need to be able to process new employees in the field.

Folks like you design toilet paper holders that advance sheets based upon need determined by sensors in the toilet bowl that measure the bulk of waste, advance the paper supply and than use a laser to cut the paper, while a folding mechanism drops it neatly into the end user's hand. Very cool. Most folks simply prefer pulling down on the roll and ripping it at the perferations...they know how much they need.

Illegal immigration increased in the 60s because Democrats ended the bracero program.

Democrats passed Title VII, and added the discrimination provision to IRCA.

Illegal immigration was out of control during all previous administrations, including Clintons, which is why this President made it part of the package of priorities in his first administration...and it got stalled immediately by 9/11. Course, all the liberal/ACLU/Demos have fought the very idea of Homeland Security, fences and requiring passports for all entries from Mexico and Canada...but don't let that sway you from your uninformed, misguided attempts to shift blame.

Your weakass arguments against using the SS card as a federal ID and to open up the database (despite the fact that it has been open for years to many institutions) is simply a proponent of the same crap about worrying about what might happen to individual rights instead of doing something for the common good using simple proven technology.

Really Steve...you're way out of your league on this. Stay down.

[VRM]

Jamo,
Actually, you have not read or understood what I have been saying.

I once had a hotel room in Japan that had a remote control bidet. Totally hilarious - but other than that what's the point? Despite your thinking to the contrary, I am not turned on by silicon(e). Technology (as far as I am concerned) is simply a tool. Sometimes it is a better tool, sometimes not.

I agree with you regarding the photo ID. I think it is a good idea. It is not a perfect solution, but I do think it will go a long way towards helping to solve the problem. So would a fence, passports, and more border patrols. Do you disagree with any of that?

And you are the one pushing a higher level of technology on businesses.
Lets see...
My solution:
photo/biometric ID (provided by Fed to worker)
ink pad
thumbprint form (provided by Fed to employer)
stamp
envelope
photocopier (to copy photo/biometric ID)
Sure, the turnaround time is probably not ideal. So lets step it up a bit...add a scanner, PC, and internet connection. You scan the thumbprint and send it with the SS# directly to a SSA website or email.. The SSA worker at the other end verifies and sends the output to the employers system.
All DB searches are tracked and logged and performed by SSA employees (a further fraud prevention feature), and are on an isolated network. No random searches of an SS number can be done.

Your version:
Photo SS card (provided by Fed to worker)
PC - mandatory
Internet connection - mandatory.

Looks like your version requires a lot more tech than mine. Again, yours would be very nice in a perfect world, but the world is not perfect.

You should also back off from watching those flashy high-tech TV shows. Phone taps don't take 30 seconds, you can't resolve a 10 pixel security cam photo into a 10M pixel wanted poster, and a good hack will usually take a lot longer to plan than an episode of '24'.

Your comment about 'simple' technology simply shows how painfully unaware you are of what goes on behind the screen. Yes, the overall concept is simple. That is the part you understand. The actual implementation is not simple. That is the part you just have no clue about.

I do have to give you some credit, though. You seem to manage well enough - you moderate a site and you seem to have a good command of the GUI tools. Many folks in your age range don't have any interest in computers and don't want to know. Oh, and many of them are small business owners. Boy, that sucks for them under your model, doesn't it.

You say that the SSA DB has never been hacked so it is safe. When you were a young stud did you tell the girls "Hey, you've never been pregnant before, so it can't happen now!" Brilliant argument. You really should know better. And , oh, wait, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/wa...rssnyt&emc=rss
The last paragraph says "The Department of Energy, the Navy, the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Social Security Administration and the Internal Revenue Service also suffered data breaches last year where personal information was lost or stolen."

Wouldn't it be interesting to find out exactly what was hacked and how in the SSA?? It would probably be way over your head, but I will do my best to explain it without all the TLAs us voice/data guys are so well known for.

Steve

[Jamo]

If you understood what is required for an I-9 form, you would get it. You don't, so you don't.

Did you understand where I explained (several times now) that liberal/ACLU/Demos fight even having pics on a federal ID card?

Do you understand how they will fight like hell to keep employers from phukingfingerprinting their employees?

Do you understand anything about the real world?

If a person presents a document which proves his or her ID and his or her entitlement to work here, they are are done. That includes birth certificates, passports and a few other documents. Otherwise, you need to show an ID document (DL, etc.) and an entitlement document (SS card, etc.).

The current law allows the employee to choose what they want to present.

We need something which is:
1. Easy
2. Acceptable

A federal ID card with a pic (the SS card with a pic) does that. I don't have to line up 300 farmworkers on the first day of the harvest season in a dusty field and fingerprint them, which creates a chain of custody issue if they get smudged or mixed up (you don't deal with urine tests everyday for drug testing so you have no clue what I'm talking about). Cops take fingerprints...folks don't want their employers to be cops!

A SS card with a pic will be ample proof...the number can be checked within a day or two back at the office (real time in our world versus 6-8 months of delay now).

I really don't think you're stupid...I do think you are being stupid. If you rely on the NY Times for your truths, then you are lost.

I never said the SS database had never been breached...I said it hadn't under IMAGE. I did point out that credit card companies, such as Visa and Mastercard, already have access to it, and they have had their own systems swiss cheesed.

BTW, I have dumbed down my conversation over the past several pages in the hopes you would understand...evidently it has not worked. I moderated this site for several years on dialup and still only use a wireless card...folks get by with minimal technology just fine.

KISS

[VRM]

Jamo,
What about me saying that I agree with you regarding a Fed pic ID being a good idea do you disagree with?

I also agree that the I-9 is a problem as it currently is used, and I have no problem changing it. It certainly is way too open-ended as it is now. Hell, given a couple of days I could forge half the docs in columns B and C, and I'm only an amateur!

I also agree that a lot of people would fight a thumbprint (I am proposing only 1 digit - not a full set). And yes, it would be a pain in the ass for a farm, but not nearly so much for cleaning crews, packers/shippers, and construction workers (where the bulk of my experience with illegals comes from). Chain of evidence is not a problem as it is not actually evidence, merely records. The print would only be used to possibly indicate a situation that could be investigated further. The fingerprint could even serve as a psychological deterent to illegals. However, I fully admit that I had not considered your situation and experience regarding farms and the quantity of people hired at a single time. Obviously, you have not considered mine either.

You say that a photo SS card will be ample proof. Those could also be forged. There is a market right now for fake SS cards. If we go to photo SS cards there will be a market for fakes of those as well. Obviously, they will be a lot tougher to fake than the SS cards currently available. However, the fact that forgeries will happen should not deter us from going ahead with it anyway. But we should make every effort to pack as much anti-copy protection into a new SS card at the first issue. Simply checking the number, as you mentioned, is not enough of a safeguard. Other metrics need to be cross-referenced to that number in order to verify that the person with the card is actually the person assigned to that card. Perhaps if the GOP had made this an issue a few years ago they would have been able to push it through by waking up the public about this (as they are now) and scaring the DNC Congresscritters. They didn't - so now we are stuck with a DNC Congress doing what it wants. I know as well as you do that under them it simply will not happen.

Regarding the SSA hacking - I have mentioned GAO reports that say it is very possible (and some reports may even mention actual SSA hacks - I have only read a couple of the reports), and also referenced a specific article that says it has happened, but under what circumstances we do not know. You say it has not happened under IMAGE, fine, please cite your source. Otherwise, given the information that we have the probability that it happend under IMAGE is identical to it not happening under IMAGE.

I have dumbed down my posts to you as well. I don't understand how you can think that by increasing access to the SSA DB that you also don't increase the risk of hacking. By your reference to hacking not happening under IMAGE before you seem to think that therefore IMAGE is safe for all to use.

Ever do probability math? I'm going to keep this simple even though there are more variables than just the ones I am going to mention here.
Suppose you have 100 balls in a jar. 5 of those balls are white and the other 95 are black. The white balls represent the access points to the SSA DB, including those through IMAGE. Now you (the hacker) reach in blindfolded an pick out a ball. What are the chances of you pulling a white one? Now, imagine that the situation is switched, and the black balls represent access to the SSA DB. What is your chance of pulling a black ball?

The trophy hackers have probably already hacked the SSA DB. I'm not really worried about them. The ones looking for info/money/whatever are going to take the path of least resistance. Right now getting bulk SS#s is easier through CC companies and universities as 'easy' access is significantly less limited. That would change with the real-time access that you propose.

With your real-time access plan I could also create a simple program that would enter random SS#s into the employers PC, search the SSA DB, and record the results. I could then make fake photo SS cards with a slightly different (but close enough to pass muster for some who will only see a mid-30s Latino with black hair and brown eyes, for example) picture, but based on a real Fed issued card.

I can fully understand you shaking your head at me and wondering 'WTF?' trying to fingerprint people at a farm. Ok, I may have deserved that. Well, I'm doing the same thing at you. Your network plan is every IT guys worst nightmare. You actually made the hair on the back of my neck stand up when you first wrote that you wanted real-time access.

I think you would be very surprised at the level of technology I use in everyday life.

Steve

[Michael4yah]

There can only be one solution....... the law. Allowing people to "Not Follow" the law had made our country a banana republic. It started in the mid 70s. Ive lived through it here in So Ca. There isnnt a single person in the Congress or the Senate that didnt know we were being invaded. For the past 30 years THEY ALL KNEW IT. The few that spoke out have been ostracised blakmailed or intimidated. Some would pass it off as a form of political correctness gone bad. I know its NOT because of the bleeding heart liberal that wants to extracate the lowly mexican from their dire existance, but a calculated intentional tactic to subvert America by destroying the political and ecconomic power of the WHITE MIDDLE CLASS. In doing so these members of the congresss, senate, executive branch as well as the Supreme Court itself have committed treason against us , our Constitution and our beloved country. They knew it was happening, and like Condolezza Rice during the 911 attack not only did nothing about it but allowed it to happen. I'm glad my father isnt here to see whats happened to his beloved country. It would break his heart. After fighting across 2 continents and having a tank blown out from under him he came home to marry his hi school sweetheart and raise a family in the country he very much loved. America. Are we still land of the free and home of the brave? We'll see, the time is coming where every man woman and child will be tested.
The count now is not 11 million, its 40 million. You know how we know this??? Its because thats how many are missing from Mexico and Latin America! But not to worry, the families left behind arent bewildered by this sudden disappearance of their kindred. They know where they are.... They have gone to invade America!!!

[Jamo]

Sorry Steve, I don't have any more time to deal with trying to make you understand. I have real world issues to deal with for my clients who live in the real world. You are concerned about a single issue concerning databases...same stuff ACLU types keep bringing up. I, and others who live with this every damn day, are trying to deal with workable solutions for hundreds of millions of employees and their employers so that enforcement can be enhanced rather than chained down. I'm sure you have assplained your concerns to your own satisfaction, but it is this tail wagging the dog syndrom that high tech folks keep getting embroiled in that causes the rest of us to have to deal with HD DVD vs. Blueray bullsh!t today just like Beta vs. VHS crap decades ago.

We want federal phot IDs and real time SS numbers checks...who gives a rat's ass how it gets done. I truly don't give a damn how the plumbing works below my toilet, so long as the sumb!tch flushes.

Michael...yup. It's an issue of enforcement, and so long as folks keep throwing up individual privacy issues, it will continue to be a problem regardless of what the law says.

I'm not real sure about those numbers though...have you checked the stadiums?

[Michael4yah]

Jamo Ive talked to people who frequent the rural areas as well as the main cities in Mexico, El Salvador, Guatamala, Honduras. In some areas like what would be our counties there are Ghost towns. The population #s are always politicized just like when latins are grouped in with whites in the Crime Statistics. We are swimming in Illegals and instead of the Federal Govt throwing us a lifesaver, they're pitching cinder blocks at us. Civil Wars have started over less than this!
Michael

[Sizzler]

I'd support a national photo ID. Fingerprints not needed.

With face recognition software, a clear photo of your face is as good as a fingerprint anyway.

I could see a national database of images that receive updates whenever someone steps up to a check-cashing window or ATM so that the database would track weight gains and hair loss/color changes. The 'original' photo would remain 'on top' but the newer ones would be available for checking.

And yes, people could put on wigs, putty or otherwise disquise themselves, which is why you would need a camera and recognition software at the critical points where you can't allow yourself to be fooled. Putty isn't going to move the center of the eyes closer or farther apart.

Fingerprints on an ID as well as the photo and signature and basically anything on the ID can be counterfeited. Need a bar code/chip/strip on the ID that would link back to the main database to pull up the 'real' identification information: photo, signature... to compare to person standing in front of you.

Then, you just need to make sure the main database remains secure.

Make it mandatory jail time for presenting an altered ID.

[Michael4yah]

How do you like it when a public service message comes over the tv or radio and says in a loud burley voice. Buckle Up...... Its... the.. LAW!!! Doesnt that iritate the crap out of you? I am old enough to remember when the 1st seat belt law was passed. My hometown newspaper ran a front page story on it with a 1/4 page UPI Photo. It was of the Congressmen and Senators who sponsored the bill along with many more standing on the steps of the Capital Building. I think it was 1961. The story that ran with this photo said the ONLY way the seat belt law would pass was if there was a compromise solution. That compromise was in the form of promise. The Federal govt PROMISED that no one would every be forced to Wear them!!!
I know that this seems off the subject but keep reading and I'll tie it in.

We have been programed to believe that we must accept whatever laws are enacted or suffer the consequences. We hear those Buckle up or Ticket commercials out here in LA over and over.
The reason why everything is so messed up is that the people who run this country dont think you or I have a long enough memory to hold their feet to the fire!!!!!!
NOT ONCE have I ever heard the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES openly proclaim that ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS MUST LEAVE THE COUNTRY NOW!!!!! HAVE YOU??? ITS THE LAW ISNT IT???
They have us so dumbed down that our expectations of our leaders wont even rise to the level of a conscience thought. We dont even expect our govt to act in a logical manner anymore. In other words...
It Ok to swim in a torrent of illegal aliens but you damn well better be wearing your seat belt!!!!!!!!!!

All you have to do is make the punishment high enough to deter the criminal from doing the crime. No Big Deal. The Federal Govt has built well over 100 camps around this country surrounded by barbed wire (Pointed inward by the way!). Some are in major cities, some are along major east west north south corridors and others are along the highways. These camps were funded under DOD and Fema Grants. They had names like Rex 84, Cable splicer, and the one Im more familiar with was called Garden Plot. All of these camps are connected by rail, most are manned with a skeleton crew and are ready to go at a moments notice. Give the illegal aliens an ULTIMATUM. Leave this country in a peacefull maner within 30 days or spend the next 10 years picking our fruit and vegetables for free. Fight back, and suffer the consequences. Then at the end of that10 years you bus them to the mexican border, give em 10 bucks and send them on their way with the admonition that if they are caught in our country again it will be 20 years. Voilla!! Its done. Overnight you'd see a streak heading south as wide as the grand canyon. Like it or not, This is how its done.
Michael

[Jamo]

Why go through all that expense?

I still think the most efficient approach is to invade Mexico. Move the farms to the workers, clean up their produce (which we all eat during the winter) so they don't use sewage water and control the chemicals. Pipe their oil (they have it, they just don't know how best to get it) overland, take over their beaches, etc. Keep it as a third world terroritory, like Puerto Rico and Washington DC...just tax em but hold back on the vote.

Build a fence at the southern end...much shorter.

Donkey shows are better than camel shows.

[Michael4yah]

Jamo.
Im not against invading Mexico, just that Invading Mexico like building the fence wont get rid of those that are here. All of what you said sounds good but doesnt guarantee that these illegals will go home. In fact if we're invading Mexico it would give them another reason to stay here. Many of them would claim sanctuary. Theres no question that Mexico's ruling elite have caused this problem and an invasion isnt out of the question. All I know is the longer they stay here the harder it is to get rid of em. AND THE MORE IT COSTS US. Lets invite them to leave. The hard way if necessary, then build the fence. With all the Mexicans going home that Govt wont have any choice but to change. Most of their population will be as mad as a wet hen and willing to do what they havnt had the guts to do before. After having a taste of the good life here they will feel the natural urge to force changes there. Unless of course they revert back to their old selves which is also highly likely. Im not for any remedy that wont push all illegals out as the 1st step. Its absolutley necessary for our survival.
Michael

[427 S/O]

Indications are this frankenstein bill might not come back to life?, we need to keep up the pressure and insist it not include anything that smells of amnesty.
Millions want the border secured first and that's should happen...NOW....

[Michael4yah]

Perry, No question, we have to stop the hemmoraging. Secure the border, Heck I'll even volunteer a week a year to get it done, but nothing can replace the removal of all illegals as the primary goal. If we focus on that the other things will fall in line. We are being forcefed the belief that they do us no harm. In California in one year alone the medical benefits to illegals ran 18 Billion Dollars. Lets see, thats 18 thousand Million.... WoW...That doesnt include the welfare, food stamps, education, and the costs of the congestion they cause Not to mention the crime, murder and mayhem that they are guilty of. The recently elected mayor of Los Angeles is a former member and suporter of "La Mecha" and La Raza" , you might google those two terms and get a real eyefull. Not a word of his associations to these groups was ever mentioned by the media before during or even after the elections. Watch this short 7 minute film to get an idea of whats happening. And Please pass it on . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc1XAQc8hS8&NR
Michael

[427 S/O]

Make no mistake people, you will hear the following in a few months or next year if the current immigration legislation passes.

Oh! we really can't expect them to do that!.

Oh! we need to amend this so they can do that!.

Oh! let's be reasonable!.

And on....and on......and on....

Write, call or email your LAW MAKERS........

[imagine2frolic]

M4yah, Are you running for office? You got my vote if you are! Problem with politicians is they have forgotten the old saying YOU CAN PLEASE SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, BUT NOT ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME, and as hard as they try to please everyone. It is just not going to happen.

The only POLITICALY CORRECT tHAT I want to hear is what is good for the long term of this country. Like Ron61 one said, let them live by their own immigration rules. They can't complain it is theirs!

[petek]

Just to be sure before I go and read this d@mn thing from cover-to-cover, the bill is S.1639, http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.1639: right?

[Michael4yah]

Imagine, thanks, Nope, no office for me. It woudnt solve anything anyway, All it takes is one bullet. Weve always put too much faith in a single individual. Always waiting for someone of pure heart that will be able to turn this nation around. The thing we have to concentrate on is our Principals, Not Personalities. This is how "they" play the shell game. They push someone with a pleasing and sometimes funny personality to the forefront (sometimes it's an actor) someone that we will like,Someone we think is just and intellegent. We elect them, they go to Wash. and either forget what they said or promised, or they claim they cant get anything done because of the opposing party's power. OR, the comprimizes they make water down any real effectual change. What they really end up doing is upholding the agenda of those that got them elected. Yes, those same people behind the scenes that I've been talking about. "Those people" who run this country ARE NOT Americans, they are Globalists. Their hidden agenda is to create a one world govt. But before they can do that they must either destroy the govts of this world or at the very least destroy the peoples faith in their govts so when they spring the trap, its a done deal. This idea of a one world govt was started many years ago. 1st as the league of nations then as the united nations. Like most things it was created with good intentions but now has all the trappings of one world dictatorship. Many Heads but only one body! Whats the old saying, the road to hell is lined with good intentions!! Which brings me back to this war we're in now. Why no Declaration of War??? Its because through a presidential executive order the United States of America entered into a secret international agreement after WW2 that The UNited States Of America would never pass or sign any Declaration of War, and in so doing Truman (a globalist) handed over our Sovereignty to this World body that became the United Nations of today. Look at Korea, Viet Nam, Panama, Granada, Somalia, Irak 1, Irak 2. Afghanistan. And not a single declaration of war among them. Yet our Constitution requires it, no, it demands it. These things happen because we dont follow the Constitution. If we held our leaders to the Constitution we wouldnt be swimming in illegals now. Not following the Constitution is a slippery slope. Once you stop following it in one area all kinds of things start happening in others, most important of all is that the Fed Govt and its agencies like the INS cease to operate under the clearly written and defined laws as we real Americans do. They now have their own agenda and its not rooted in the law.

If we rebel against the ruling party "they" merely get the other party to step in make a lot of promises and by doing so they preempt us from making any real changes. So we end up being played like a ping pong ball bouncing back and forth between these two sick dead end ideologies and in the process we've lost our freedom and Im affraid with it our Republic. That's what's been happening for the last 44 years. The Red shift is on now, The Democrats are preparing to retake the white house and much mud will be slung to excite the masses into getting out the vote. In my opinion we should boycott any election where the 2 main candidates are Rep. or Dems. Enough is Enough. If we elect any Democrat or Republican nothing of any significance will ever be done NO MATTER WHAT PROMISES THEY GIVE. The Democrats have already stated that they want the illegals here, the republicans are more subtle but they want them here too. Dems want them here because the illegals are sure to vote for socialism (FREEBIES) which means they'l vote Democratic. The Republicans want them here as a source of cheap labor and in doing so it holds down wages for the rest of us. The real unseen truth is more sinister. These illegals are here to upset the majority. Who??? The White middle class. They are here to dilute its numbers and in doing so they take away its political and ecconomic advantage. Why? Because its the white middle class thats the only group of significant size, moral backbone, Patriotic and determined enough to confront this global conspiracy. In Short, We stand in their way.

These people who took this nation over on 11/22/63 are masterfull manipulators. Those of you that are under 40 probably havnt lived long enough to see and feel the big changes in our REPUBLIC. I remember a time when I felt free, a time where our leaders were actually doing what we wanted and a time where your average neighborhood policeman knew that his job wasnt to CONTROL US BUT TO INSURE THAT WE HAVE LIBERTY.
It wont matter whether we elect a Rep or Dem. The people who run this country own and operate both parties. When the people get disgruntled they merely pull one party out of the white house and plug the other one in. On 'Nov 22 1963 this country was forced to take a wrong turn in the road and its never returned to its former self.

If the vast majority of us believes in Gods Law, the Constituion, and our Republic and we Bind our politicians to those laws then they cant kill our dream with merely a bullet like they did on that Nov. day. When in doubt turn to the bible, in it God says to "Bind your nobles with fetters of iron", meaning to handcuff your leaders to the law and to the truth. We havnt done that. Thats why wer're in a war right now. These people who run our country from behind the scenes know the tide is turning, people are waking up to their tactics. But we also know that "these same people" would be willing to start a civil war to stay in power. The fuse on that war has already been lit. I dont see a political solution although I pray for one daily. One of "their" mottos is " Ordo Ab Chao" or ORDER OUT OF CHAOS. Here is a quote that sums it up pretty good:
"The puppetmasters create "disorder" so the people will demand "order". The price of "order" always entails a handing over of control and loss of freedom on the part of the citizenry. Out of "chaos" comes "order" - THEIR order - their new WORLD order."

The illegals that are here are doing the bidding of those same puppetmasters. If we allow them to stay it will be the end of our country as we know it, The changes are already starting, When I call my banks automated system I am told to press 1 for English. If I dont they refuse the call. Its psycological warfare, getting us conditioned to accept these Mexicans.
If this nation ever needed a Duly Sworn in Constitutionally protected Militia. IT'S NOW. Whatever you do, DONT BACK DOWN. Illegals Out now!!!
Michael

[Ron61]

Michael,

Well written and all sad but true. But we have lost so much of our freedoms and rights I wonder if anything short of another civil war can get any of them back and we could also get rid of the illegals at the same time as they will fight for the politicians.

Ron

[stengun]

Howdy Jamo,

Originally Posted by Jamo

Oh really? Please tell what agency this "Division" is part of?

Is this something they teach in Arkansas schools?

You might know it as the unemployment office. Most states, if not all states have a some type of a employment office. Arkansas' happens to be called Employment Security Division. They are part of the Arkansas Department of Workforce Services.

http://www.arkansas.gov/esd/

It is so easy to find out if a person is a legal US citizen or an illegal alien. All you have to do is pick up the phone or fire up the 'puter.

Yea, it would be cool to see all these CEOs, plant managers, HR managers, company/corp. lawyers go to jail for breaking federal laws.

But since these companies exploit the illegals, how can anyone that is a decent, moral human support or condon what the management/ownership/leadership of these businesses/companies/corps./etc. are doing?

I'm a left-wing liberal, but could never exploit or use anyone the way he illegals or being used by big business just to make an extra buck.

Paul

[stengun]

Howdy Michael,

Originally Posted by Ron61

Michael,

Well written and all sad but true. But we have lost so much of our freedoms and rights I wonder if anything short of another civil war can get any of them back and we could also get rid of the illegals at the same time as they will fight for the politicians.

Ron

+1

Yep, The Repubs want them for cheap labor plus their vote and the Dems want them for their vote.

Let's see.... there's over 20 million (yea, everybody claims there's only 12 million yea, right blow smoke up some Repubs butt, not mine! ), and say 5 million got out and voted.........

Gee, let's see........In 2000, Gore got more of the popular vote than Bush by a couple of 100,000 votes (I'm not going to look up the numbers), and in 2004 Bush beat Kerry by about 2 million votes.

So, this group of illegals, if given the right to vote could control all nation elections and most local and state elections.

Great! That's just what we need!

Paul