Lawrence of Arabia

[imagine2frolic]

My wife, and I spent the last couple of nights watching Lawrence of Arabia. When we had finished my wife was amazed at the similarities of today. It is a small glimpse of how it has been for how many hundreds, thousands, of years? I believe no matter what the turn out of Iraq. When we are gone it will turnout the same way it has been for the history of the Middle East. How is it we think we can change this behaviour of following warlords, and the hatred of the next tribe?

[cobra de capell]

We can't. That's why we are training Iraq's to do that job. I don't think anyone believes that our military can deal with hatred.

[VRM]

I2F,
It has long been one of my favourite movies. The book version (Seven Pillars of Wisdom) is even better. Go for the 1922 text - it is not available in the US due to copyrights. I bought mine from a place in England - I could dig up the contact info if anyone is interested.

What the movie does not get into is things like the Balfour Declaration, Sykes-Picot, and other contradictory promises, which has a lot to do with the problems we are having over there now. The US came into that whole mess rather late in the game, but we now take a lot of the blame for a lot of different reasons.

The Brits screwed the Arabs, but the Arabs also did it to themselves. Or rather, some Arabs did it to other Arabs. The Arabs did not (and still do not) think like one people. Then throwing Islam into the mix adds a few more variables and tends to divide them even more.

This is one reason why going in to Iraq was a bad idea. We like to think of things in terms of good guys and bad guys, and the situation is just not that simple.

Steve

P.S. - It's going to be fun...

[cobra de capell]

This is one reason why going in to Iraq was a bad idea.

Not at the time, it just seems bad now, actually it is bad now, but we cannot just leave.

[VRM]

CdC,
It was one of the reasons I listed way back in the beginning for not going in. Most of you didn't agree with me back then, and I was called any number of things for it.

Back then I was not the only one pointing out the problems we would have, but most everyone was too wrapped up in blind patriotism/revenge to actually think about the possible repercussions.

I have frequently sided with people like Bush Sr and Scowcroft when it comes to foreign policy issues.

And I agree - packing up and leaving in a single stroke would be a bad idea. So would staying indefinitely.

Steve

[CobraEd]

The underlying issue is that we are thinking like "first world" Americans, . . believing that if we proovide the necessary support and infrastructure, they will get traction and succeed. However, have you ever watched these people on TV. The vast majority of then have the maturity and self discipline of 5 year olds. It will take many many generations of gradual progress before they even begin to get it.

so sad.

[imagine2frolic]

Sykes-Picot was mentioned, but within a sentence. I think during the era of colonialism we played with many countries like a child does a toy. Not appreciating their true worth. The time is no longer here where we can control another country's resource. We need to think of them as equals, and do a good clean business transaction with them.

I sometimes think we have 250 million tribes here in the USA. So many think of themselves only. Our children are soft as can be. Our jobs are all over the world due to corporate greed. We need to pull up our boots, tighten our belts, and put our shoulders to the cart. Our individual rights should be treasured, but not over the survival of the American way of life.

It is not all about the buck. Money is important, but contibuting to America is much more important. We excelled from the industrial revolution to the space age. Are we on a slippery slope, and gravity is taking control?

[Jamo]

You folks seem to forget...there was a "bad guy" at the time: the Ottoman Empire.

France had their hands in it as well.

[CobraEd]

[quote=Jamo]You folks seem to forget...there was a "bad guy" at the time: the Ottoman Empire.

Waddaya talking about. The ottoman empire was the only "enlightened" "progressive" islamic rule that these people ever had. The O empire was an asset to these people.

.

[VRM]

Jamo, yep on the French. Personally, I think that they messed things up even more than the Brits. They did manage to win a battle, though.

And yes, the Ottomans were bad guys, and many of the Arabs ended up helping the good guys with the promise of certain things after the war was over. The good guys reneged and have not been trustworthy (in Arab eyes) since.

Steve

[Jamo]

[quote=CobraEd]

Originally Posted by Jamo

You folks seem to forget...there was a "bad guy" at the time: the Ottoman Empire.

Waddaya talking about. The ottoman empire was the only "enlightened" "progressive" islamic rule that these people ever had. The O empire was an asset to these people.

.

I presume you jest. If not...a few hundred years earlier, I would agree with you. But at the time of which we speak...hardly. It had become the very definition of a corrupt system during the 19th century, thereby earning the title "Sick Man of Europe" and universally hated by everyone. They were not Arabic, but leftovers of Central Asian hords pushed west by successive Khans.

Arabs, Jews, Greeks and of course Armenians suffered at their hand.

[CobraEd]

I thought they were Turks. Islamic Turks who were progressive.

[Jamo]

Turkic actually...same DNA as Central Asians. "Turks" are citizens of modern day Turkey. The "progressive" government came into being after the fall of the Ottoman Empire..."progressive" in that they used Kurds to do much of their dirty deeds on their behalf. But that is another story.

[767Jockey]

Speaking of Turks, what ever happened to "Turk" here on CC?

[Jamo]

Moved back to Turkey.

Alive and well over at Gasholes.

[uncltodd]

"History has not been kind to wealthy republics."

Anybody remember who I stole that marvellous quote from?