TROOP FATALITIES....whose to blame?

[VRM]

I still think it was very bad strategy to take on Iraq without finishing up in Afghanistan. We are now paying the price in both countries. The weapons inspectors were finding nothing in Iraq - Hussein had blinked first. We could have focused a lot harder on Afghanistan, and not given Al Quiada time to regroup. After many years of Taliban rule in Afghanistan, we had the support of a huge majority of the locals (and we still do, but that support is diminishing because we have not managed to actually finish the job).

We would have been dealing with some of the same elements, but because Afghanistan is not as developed as Iraq, and because it is more isolated, we would have been better able to keep the edge over the bad guys until more and better body armour and vehicles were produced.

Steve

[jams]

Mumvees were designed for domestic issues (Helping flood victims etc.)and for mopping up post conflict operations. Despite all of there modifications they are being used inappropriately. Just because you have some light armor and a .50 caliber machine gun does not make you a combat vehicle

Choose the right tool for the right job!

[VRM]

Originally Posted by jams

Mumvees were designed for domestic issues (Helping flood victims etc.)and for mopping up post conflict operations. Despite all of there modifications they are being used inappropriately. Just because you have some light armor and a .50 caliber machine gun does not make you a combat vehicle

Choose the right tool for the right job!

Mumvees??? Are we not supposed to talk about them, or is it the stealth version? Sorry Jamo, I don't usually pick on typos, but that one was just too funny to resist.

And I completely agree with you. Hummers were to replace the Jeep. I've seen plenty of those with a .50 cal, and they could certainly do some damage (as can Hummers), but they were designed to be faster, more nimble, and a lot less armoured than the tracked vehicles. Bradleys were to replace the old M3, and are probably more appropriate.

Steve

[Jamo]

No worries...you can't read anyway. "jams" rather than "Jamo"

[jams]

Maybe it wasn't a typo. I just can't spell!

Mum us the word!

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Jamo

No worries...you can't read anyway. "jams" rather than "Jamo"

Good point - which would I rather have on my toast... Ewwww!!

[fsstnotch]

Originally Posted by Jamo

I think we need to dumb down our smart stuff in a controlled manner. A city block here and there will make it unacceptable to harbor the bad guys in the neighborhood. Note that some groups that don't even like us are fighting the really bad guys lately to get them out of their towns.

I must ask this... If we are at war with shiite, sunni, and al qaeda militants and the shiite and sunni's are in civil war.... Who is the benefactor of the sunni militants joining forces with the coalition?! Looks to me like the Sunni fighters have developed a genius plan to win a civil war!

And to piggy back what someone else said about the phsycological part, if there were not reporters on every corner waiting for the US to screw up or collect some collateral, it would be alot easier to do business over here! The militants are smart, and extreme cowards! They have no problem setting up traps for us in the form of IED's. If you've never been here, it's hard to grasp what these guys in convoys go through! The streets are littered with trash making it very easy to hide IED's, couple that with the fact that these people are TERRORISTS! They do not care if they kill innocent people!

I may be in Iraq, but I have the UTMOST respect for anyone in a convoy here! I met a guy the other day and somehow started talking about sunglasses. He had none. When I asked why, he said he lost them the first time he was "blown up!" He said he is the gunner in that lead humvee, he's been blown up 5 times in the past year! He was very excited to be leaving soon! I gave him my sunglasses and bought some new ones!

Josh

[Aussie Mike]

I heard the US Army is buying a bunch of our Australian designed Bushmasters for work in Iraq. These machines are designed with a V shaped hull to deflect the blast of a land mine or IED.

I spent some time crawling round inside one at a display day a couple of years back. Pretty cool machine.




Bushmaster

Here's a pic of one where they set a mine off underneath it.



Cheers

[Jamo]

Josh...yup, most of us understand what you're saying about the media. We're on the other side of it, and we are fed the daily pics of the messy side of what you're living through, and very little of anything else. Unfortunately, that ain't gonna change. Family members living through what you have echo your statements.

Hate to say it, but civil war is inevitable when a central authority that holds together diverse groups is gone. Sadaam was that central authority, but he had to go. We are it now. When we leave, there will be a struggle. How bad it is depends on what political structure is in place. Greater India after the Raj, Yugoslavia after Tito, various African nations after Britain, Germany and Belgium and others left...all examples, but each different. Much of what we're facing now are the remains of the Ottoman Empire which held things in check for several centuries. Almost seems that civil wars are a necessary part of determining whether a geo-political region will constitute a nation or group of nations. Hopefully, the cultural groups fighting each other will have in common the desire to stamp out groups who care nothing for moving civilization forward, but no one knows.

[fsstnotch]

Aussie Mike, you are correct. those V hull machines work far better than the current junk we have.

[VRM]

Jamo,
I still disagree that Hussein had to go (why are so many of us on a first name basis with him? ). I think that when he finally gave up power to one of his sons then the Iraqis would have taken care of business themselves, and we would not be left holding the bag. You have to be willing to fight for your own freedom. The majority of Iraqis were just not there.

I do agree with your comments about civil war - Iraq really needs to sort this out themselves. We dismantled all the political structures - that pretty much insures that it is going to be even worse. Dismantling the Iraqi army was also a very bad idea.

If we pick a side then all of the other groups will be out to get us - if we don't pick a side then the civil war just might be very long and very bloody. Unfortunately, the winning side could very well end up aligning the country with Iran. I don't think the moron in the White House understood that before we went in.

Steve

[Jamo]

Cuz most folks like the King of Jordan.

We're rebuilding the army and their law enforcement (slow as that process seems), and hopefully leaving them with a better political structure than the complete absence of one they had, noting that it is simply a structure...we can't guarantee who will occupy it for any length of time after we leave. Self determination is a b!tch of a process.

Please...regardless of what we're going through right now, the sumb!tch and his seedlings needed to get the phuk off this planet.

[VRM]

Regarding sending Hussein to Spacelab - that's just your opinion. And don't forget - before he invaded Kuwait he was one of the 'good' guys.

Steve

[Jamo]

You mean something that I opine about is my opinion? I'll be damned.

Despots change...the last French king [FTF] seemed like a good guy too.

[VRM]

True about the King of Jordan. I was recently talking to a friend of mine about the car nicknamed 'Insane One', and driven by AJ Foyt. He thought it was very appropriate that it was nicknamed that since the guy it was named after was just that. Suffice it to say that it turned 'Whos on first' rather quickly since he seemed to not be able to realise that there might actually be a different guy named Hussein than just the ex-Iraq dictator.

It was probably funnier in real life than my lame telling of it here.

Steve

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Despots change...the last French king [FTF] seemed like a good guy too.

Louis XXX?? Did he retire after his Charleston Chew commercial?

Steve

[trularin]

I think he had cosmetic surgery on the neck.