Tahoe Green Car Of Year

[Ron61]

Who would have thought this.

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/...-the-year.html

Ron

[imagine2frolic]

Now that is a REAL shocker!

[Ron61]

I thought so too. Wonder how much they got paid to chose it so the car companies can get rid of all of those giant gas hogs.

Ron

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Who would have thought this.

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/...-the-year.html

Ron

It makes sense to me, Ron. The large SUV's and pick-ups are what many American people want to buy. If they, as a group, improved by just a few miles-per-gallon, it would have a major impact on relieving our foreign oil dependence.

As I tried to point out before, I think that the hybrid theme will soon work well with new electric transmissions that are cheaper and more dependable than the hydraulic automatics that we have become accustomed to, especially for large truck type vehicles. Even notice how exorbitantly expensive the new computerized automatic hydro trannies have become? I think their future reign is very limited and they are partially electric now anyway. The all-electric drive Prius, for example, has been listed by Consumer Reports as the most trouble-free car in the world, bar none.

As another example of electric transmission durability, let me reiterate that our locomotives have been using electric transmissions for a long time (since the '50's) with now over 700 hp per drive-motor. The principle of torque conversion is achieved by the inherent quality of all electric motors to draw the largest amount of current (thereby greatest torque) starting at stall speed and reducing to nearly zero current draw (and no torque) at neutral cruise or whenever there is no drag. Very, very efficient. And when an electric motor is pushed beyond neutral cruise, it becomes a generator, pumping up the storage batteries. The one negative factor of carbon brushes for DC motors/generators has been recently overcome by use of large super-heavy-duty solidstate inverters that replace these high wear items. Suddenly, electric transmissions have become very viable. More than viable.

IMHO, Toyota has developed the best system to handle large amounts of power so far and they are cautiously running with it. Their so called Synergy Drive, a uniquely clever arrangement, may even be patented to the exclusion of general use. Not even Honda has been able to match it. Nissan shares the identical drive development used in the Camry but only offers it in limited markets, in the Altima.

Toyota is very actively promoting their large truck and SUV's in recent trade shows, and I expect that they will shortly announce heavy duty hybrid technology in these lines also. I haven't actually seen any publicized hint yet ...but I find it hard to believe that they won't eventually take blitzkrieg advantage of their present frontrunner position. I expect to see a lot of hopeful hoopla promoting American made(?) vehicles, especially from GM who has a bit of catching-up to do as the formerly most fuel efficient manufacturer. Some new vehicles are hybrids ...but very marginally so with maybe 5 hp worth electric boost. Still, not much of an electric boost and regeneration is required in the city due to low hp needs.

I just love cars. I don't care if they are electric or not.


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[Ron61]

Wes,

I agree and if I could have an electric car like I want it, then I would love to have one. Batteries would run for at least 1,000 miles between charges, it would accelerate like mad, handle well, and be easy to work on. More and more what I am seeing is the regular garages being forced out of business as only the dealers can work on the newer cars. But I would love to see a really clean and economical vehicle. Our problem here with even the hybrids is the distances people have to travel and the high and steep mountains they have to go over. There are some places it is a long drive and many miles between places to get gas, so even the people with good mileage cars tend to haul a can of gas with them when they start on some of these routes.

Ron

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Wes,

I agree and if I could have an electric car like I want it, then I would love to have one. Batteries would run for at least 1,000 miles between charges, it would accelerate like mad, handle well, and be easy to work on. More and more what I am seeing is the regular garages being forced out of business as only the dealers can work on the newer cars. But I would love to see a really clean and economical vehicle. Our problem here with even the hybrids is the distances people have to travel and the high and steep mountains they have to go over. There are some places it is a long drive and many miles between places to get gas, so even the people with good mileage cars tend to haul a can of gas with them when they start on some of these routes.

Ron

Ron,

I think I might be mistaken on the exclusive patent view:

From ( http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_sh...rid/index.html )...........

"The Tahoe hybrid is, in many ways, GM's biggest news at the Detroit Show, because this is the first time that anyone has taken a true hybrid system--co-developed with BMW and DaimlerChrysler--and applied it to a full-size truck. The so-called two-mode system generates around 300 hp and consists of an electric motor/generator and a Vortec V-8 OHV engine, using electric power only, engine power only, or a combination thereof at low speeds and light loads. It's the Toyota approach with two planetary gear seats (sets?) and two electric motors mated to a gasoline engine. Unlike previous GM hybrids such as the Saturn Vue Green Line, the Tahoe hybrid will be able to accelerate with the gasoline engine shut off. The technology has worldwide applications, and GM is crowing that it will provide amazing gas mileage when combined with diesel engines in Europe. In the U.S., the same gasoline/electric powertrain from the Tahoe will also be fitted to the Escalade. On the highway, full eight-cylinder engine power is added to the electric motors for passing, climbing steep grades, and towing. GM claims 25 percent fuel savings compared to conventional Tahoes, improvements aided by such features as a 0.4-inch lower ride height, low rolling resistance tires, a streamlined hood leading edge, and a liftgate and hood made of aluminum. The truck goes on sale late in 2007 as a 2008 model."

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The idea of well-designed hybrids will soon allow better gas mileage for the over-the-mountain trips, even in large vehicles. Newer Li-Ion batteries will allow storing even more of the downhill energy to be used for free partly-back-up energy. If there was room to store all the downhill energy, then it would be free all the way back up, nearly the same as if the trip had been made on level ground.

The next hybrids will provide extraordinary acceleration and performance with both electric and gas zipping together away from a stop. A 150hp engine plus a 150hp electric motor will rip up new pavement. One thing to keep in mind is that electric motors make their most torque from a dead stop while relatively anemic gas engines are allowed to slip just enough to normally barely approach their maximum torque ...while first starting. This hybrid performance potential is very notable in the Prius which, with full gas high torque-speed design and full electric, puts out a nearly combined 300 foot-pounds, the same as a 5.0 Mustang V-8 302.

It's just too bad the Prius looks like a squared-off castrated teardrop.
But the weird shape is super-low Cd( coefficient of drag) I guess, form following function. Maybe I'll get used to it on the wifes daily driver, the shape of things to come.

I think that electric transmissions will be easier to service. While they aren't entirely uncomplicated, one must realize that conventional hydraulic transmissions contain a fragile analog computer in the form of the valve body. Electric transmissions, eventually being controlled by a cheap throw-away digital computer, actually simplify this. Electric transmissions, also using planetary gearsets, but by eliminating bands and clutches, have very few moving friction parts to wear out. Right now, the inverter is the expensive item, but, it too ...is wear resistant. The batteries are the weakest link, but far better than batteries even 5 years ago and getting better. Toyota unofficially expects current batteries to last for 15 tears.

For part of my life I worked as TV repairman just as transistors were getting popular. Much of the service was to replace worn out vacuum tubes and discreet point-to-point soldiered parts such as resistors and capacitors. Soon part of the circuitry was replaced by printed circuit boards with solid state transistors. If you remember, eventually, Motorola came out with the Quasar TV that used rebuildable plug-in modules, greatly simplifying repair on site. It wasn't long before the old modules were just thrown. Nowadays, we often throw the entire TV away. I think this will happen to the automotive industry and I think they know to fear it. And they have feared it since the well-loved(by owner/leasers) electric cars in California. The handwriting was on their wallets.

P.S. EDIT: Good Tahoe hybrid info link ( http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=120687 )


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[Ron61]

Wes,

I hope that they get on the ball and do a lot of development work as we need to start stopping our dependence on foreign oil. To me the main thing I have against the electric cars that I have seen is very limited range and big EXPENSIVE batteries. On the other hand I am waiting to we what happens when they have the first big wreck between tow of them and batteries come apart and spill. Even if they use a gel type, there will still be a clean up factor and so far I haven't heard a word about that around here.

Ron

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Wes,

I hope that they get on the ball and do a lot of development work as we need to start stopping our dependence on foreign oil. To me the main thing I have against the electric cars that I have seen is very limited range and big EXPENSIVE batteries. On the other hand I am waiting to we what happens when they have the first big wreck between tow of them and batteries come apart and spill. Even if they use a gel type, there will still be a clean up factor and so far I haven't heard a word about that around here.

Ron

Because of limited range of straight electric cars, hybrids have become popular. Hybrids have about the same range as conventional cars. The wifes Prius supposedly will go up to about 700 miles on a full tank of less than 12 gallons. But the actual mileage is usually less than advertised so I expect about 500 miles to a tank. The best she has done on the highway is about 53 mpg but she was following me in a camper that I only drove at 70 mph with a tailwind.

I'm not sure what the Prius batteries cost but have heard about $3000 plus installation. I'm not sure if there is ever a problem since Consumer Reports did not bring it up when they gave it top rating. But here are two websites that seem to address the possibility:

From ( http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsyn...l/battery.html )

"Q: What would it cost to replace a complete battery pack?

*GS: Less than $3000, plus labor."
*Gary E. Smith, national service technology manager at Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.

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From ( http://www.hybridcars.com/technology...ent-costs.html )

Connection failure, battery OK.

"....In June 2005, the L.A. Times reported that hybrid battery replacement costs dropped from $10,000 in 2001 to about $3,000 today. But three months later, Car and Driver's Brock Yates—no fan of hybrids—wrote, "battery replacement will cost $5,300 for the Toyota and Lexus hybrids, and the Ford Escape replacements run a whopping $7,200." ...
...He also insinuated some kind of cover-up, writing that "industry types are not talking about total battery life."... ...They’re talking—but Brock’s not listening...

...Ray (Molton) wrote, "My 2001 Toyota Prius lasted five years and 113,000 miles. And then the batteries seemed to die. My dealer estimated the replacement cost at $7,000. They recommended scrapping the car for parts."... ...Ray told me that Toyota had been "no help whatsoever on this issue." He called another dealer only to discover a larger estimate of $8,000 to $9,000. Even worse, Ray discovered that the Toyota shop had another 2001 Prius with a bad battery. Maybe there is a conspiracy brewing, after all...
...To make matters worse, Ray bought a salvage Prius battery to soften the damage to his pocketbook—only to discover that the salvage battery's #13 cell was corroded, the same #13 cell that had a problem on his Prius... ...All of this threw me for a loop. Apparently, it had the same effect on Toyota...etc...

...So Ray’s ordeal wasn’t caused by a failure of new hybrid battery technology—those batteries will last the life of the vehicle and will help save hundreds of gallons of gasoline for their owners. And the next generation of lithium ion batteries may be one of the keys to weaning America off its dependence on oil. The root of Ray's problems stemmed from an ordinary corroded connection, the failure of a huge corporation to respond to one of their customers, and the willingness of a local car dealership to profit handsomely from a problem rather than fix it at a reasonable cost. Unfortunately, these stories are just as hidden in the media as all of those so-called “hidden costs” of owning a hybrid..."
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So I don't know what batteries for my wifes Toyota really cost and I fear my loss of comparison service shopping ability with such an offbeat product. So I hope Toyota's generous warranty (100k miles here, 150k Cali) and Consumer Reports is correct in their assessment. And my dealer is honest.

I wouldn't think that there will be much of an unusual clean-up factor in the case of battery collision spill. The Prius battery is under the rear seat whereas most lead-acid 12v batteries are rather exposed near one front fender where they are commonly damaged. While NiCads have some toxic qualities, the Nickel metal hydride (NiMH) now used in hybrids are relatively harmless. But one never knows when some environmental idiot will object to a spill whether it is a bit of gasoline at a Gas Station or any kind of fluid from a broken car. Like the sign says at the Gas Station, "You are responsible for any spills!". Clean up and disposal can get pricy in some cases.


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[Ron61]

Wes,

I see this as more of another money making scam than anything really bad. My friend runs a garage and he takes in old batteries of all kinds and they send out a disposal truck for them. I will be long gone before I could afford to buy anything else anyway.

Ron