Hot rod history question

[round_midnight]

Yesterday I was listening to the Beach Boys' song "409", and I got to wondering just what exactly is a 409? I assume the number refers to engine displacement, but does it also refer to a specific make and model of car? Anyone know?

[imagine2frolic]

http://www.surfermoon.com/lyrics/lit...e_coupe.html#6

Never says what car is there....

[CobraEd]

A 409 is a completely different engine from the typical chevy smallblock and bigblock. It is called the "W" head engine because the heads/valvecovers form a "W". It is a bigblock but was made before the bigblock we now all know. This engine started out as a 348 ci engine in 1958, and was then upped to a 409. They stopped making them after 1963. The highest hp 409 was 425 hp with dual 4s and a solid lifter cam.

[Karl Bebout]

409s were the largest Chevy passenger car engine for a few years in the early 60s. ("mystery motor 427" excluded). I'm thinking they were available from '61-'64. They replaced the 348 that had come out in '58. Both engines are easily recognizable by their unique valve covers.

[CobraEd]

http://www.1963chevrolet.com/images/...9%20engine.JPG

.

[imagine2frolic]

I remember being a freshman in 64, and a guy had a yellow 409 Impala Convertible in our apt. complex. I use to drool over it......

[Silverback51]

Different heads on those things. No combustion chambers, just dished out pistons.

Not sure how well they flowed, but they were not incorporated into the 396/427/454 series engines.

[Excaliber]

The legendary 409, what more needs to be said!

No doubt most of them came in the large Chevy sedan of the time, basically an Impalla, depending on trim levels, Biscayne or whatever. The full size Chevy of the time. The 348 was also a TRUCK engine for Chev at the time.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

A 409 is a completely different engine from the typical chevy smallblock and bigblock. It is called the "W" head engine because the heads/valvecovers form a "W". It is a bigblock but was made before the bigblock we now all know. This engine started out as a 348 ci engine in 1958, and was then upped to a 409. They stopped making them after 1963. The highest hp 409 was 425 hp with dual 4s and a solid lifter cam.

It's my understanding that the 409 started th muscle car era.

From the web:

1961 would be the year that the first true muscle car was introduced, the Chevrolet Impala SS. This would also be the year that Chevrolet introduced its 409 cubic inch V8, the engine that would launch the Big Three auto manufacturers into the horsepower race that would last well into the 1970s. The 409 was actually a response to Ford's new 390 cid engine, which was outperforming Chevy's on the dragstrip. Although it put out "only" 360 bhp compared to Ford's top 375 bhp, those extra 19 cid gave it respect on the street and immortalized in song ("She's really fine, my 409"). Chevrolet introduced the Super Sport (SS) option package, which was optional on the 348 and standard with the 409, which would define Chevrolet performance for many years to come. The Super Sport package, a bargin at just $53.80, consisted of special body and interior trim, power steering, power brakes with sintered metallic linings, full wheel covers with a three blade spinner, a passenger grab bar, a console for the floor shift, and a tachometer on the steering column. The 409 engine came only with the four-speed manual transmission and only one factory axle ratio. Lower axle ratios were available from the dealer and owners could see 1/4 mile times in the high 15s, which was pretty impressive in 1961. Unfortunately, the 409 already came with 11.25 compression and a four barrel carburetor, and due to its wedge shaped combustion chambers was not very easy to improve performance further. But no matter. Although only 142 Impala SS 409s were built in 1961 (and most went to good customers that would run them at the local dragstrips), the legend was born and the horsepower race was on.

Production: Impala SS: 453 Impala SS w/ 409 V8: 142
Engines: 348 (4 bbl) V8 305 bhp. 348 V8 340 bhp. 348 (3x2 bbl) V8 350 bhp. 409 V8 360 bhp @ 5800 rpm, 409 lb-ft @ 3600 rpm.
Performance: 409/360: 0-60 in 7.8 sec. 1/4 mile in 15.8 sec. @ 94.1 mph.

[round_midnight]

Wow! Ask and ye shall receive! Thanks for the answers everyone.

[Cobrabill]

CDC-sorry,but a Impala was not the first muscle car.Generally,the 64 GT0 is considered the first muscle car (big inches into a intermediate body)But,before that, the Chrysler 300 letter series was the first MC in the mid-50s.

Chevy 409s were a steady staple in the diet of Pontiacs 421 cars.

[snakebitekit]

Kids!!!!!!!

[Excaliber]

Well Cobrabill does have a point, I always considered the GTO as being the leader of the pack in that regard, thats when it all kind of 'hit big'. No question, the 409, the Pontiac 421, among others 'set the stage'. The early 50's Chrsyler effort was a bit of an anomaly, WAY ahead of it's time it wouldn't 'catch fire' for another decade. Hey how about those 1950-1951 Hudsons? They were tearing up NASCAR.

[Wes Tausend]

...

I always thought the "bigger block" Chevy 348 and Ford 332/352 FE engines were a reaction to NASCAR outlawing "smallblock" Chevy fuel injection and blowers in 1957. Many people are familiar with Chevy's Rochester fuel injection of 1957 but most know less about Fords use of the McCulloch VR57 blower in the same year. The blown Y-block Fords kicked Chevy's mouse butt in 1957, by the way. Normally the Ford Y-blocks just couldn't breathe like Chevies.
See http://www.vs57.com about 3/4 down the page:
"The VR57 equipped Fords basically dominated Motorsport during early 1957, and if it wasn’t for the NASCAR ban on the use of superchargers (and fuel injection) from racing in April 1957 would probably have continued dominating for the rest of the season."

So it looks to me that the start of the HP race was more likely in 1957-58 when "little" big blocks started "mysteriously" appearing in here-to-fore economy factory sedate sedans. The 348's were available with 3 deuces, I believe. And I owned a '58 Ford ragtop that had a 315hp 4-barrel FE352 with a factory solid lifter cam. The valves featured spring dampers that looked like dual valve springs and it had 10.5:1 compression ratio. It was backed by a 3 speed Cruise-o-matic, sort of a C-6 fore-runner.

The Chevy 409 was not too reliable when revved up and was eventually replaced by an improved big block. The W motor actually didn't have combustion chambers but mounted the cylinder head at an angle to produce a wedge between the flat face of the head and top of the pistons. It was a lousy design with poor flame propogation but at least the valves were never shrouded.

Fords little 332+ lived on to become the side-oiler ...side-oiler because it, too, didn't live well(original oiling system) with extended rpms common in stock car racing. The stock Ford FE also tended to break valve rocker shafts for no apparent reason.

Good old days. When cars still smelled like hot oil and gasoline.


...

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

CDC-sorry,but a Impala was not the first muscle car.Generally,the 64 GT0 is considered the first muscle car (big inches into a intermediate body)But,before that, the Chrysler 300 letter series was the first MC in the mid-50s.

Chevy 409s were a steady staple in the diet of Pontiacs 421 cars.

I'd say, as noted above the 409 'set the stage' at the very least, but I wonder if anyone during that era even thought that they were creating muscle cars. I'm still thinking that the Impala was the first one.........

[Cobrabill]

If you're talking big HP in full size cars,then the MOPAR 300 letter series has it beat by 6 years.The 300 was the first car to put out HP equal or better than CI.

Wes touched on something i was going to leave alone-the 409s came from the factory with "pins"in them.And many a 409 had it's pin pulled,which left a box of parts.

[round_midnight]

Woohoo!!! Boy did I open a can of worms! YeeHaw!!!

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

You brought back memories. My first car in 1963 was a black 1958 Impala, 348, 3 deuces, and a 4 speed. Had a hole in the floorboard so I pop riveted a no parking sign I had lifted from a pole in Kansas City. Later I got a white 63 Impala convertible but after graduating college I got a '68 red GTO. My brother in law wrecked it while I was in Viet Nam so when I got home I bought a white '59 fuelie Corvette. Ah the good ole days.

[RACER X #99]

The Chevy 348-409 were the first big V8's to be designated as Boat Anchors a term that applies to many engines no longer manufactured by Ford, Chevy, Chrysler
Just thought you should know this.

[Excaliber]

Well OK then, so THATS where the term 'boat anchor' originated from.