Remember that pilot who's pistol discharged...

[767Jockey]

What a fool.

[Excaliber]

Did you hear about the policeman on campus recently being attacked from behind by a guy with a baseball bat? Some how his primary weapon was not available (knocked out of the way or taken, I'm unclear on that). Anyway he went for his 'ankle gun' and shot the guy dead.

I was like, "Wow, had a backup weapon, he's a tough sucker."

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Did you hear about the policeman on campus recently being attacked from behind by a guy with a baseball bat? Some how his primary weapon was not available (knocked out of the way or taken, I'm unclear on that). Anyway he went for his 'ankle gun' and shot the guy dead.

I was like, "Wow, had a backup weapon, he's a tough sucker."

Yeah, may have heard a little sumthin about it...asspecially since it happened here in Fresno


Of course, the weeping family of the dead worthless little prick is asking why he had to die. The bat was sawed off with electrical tape on the remaining handle...a weapon in its morphed life. Hit the cop, and stood over him ready to hit him again as he kept yelling "go ahead, shoot me!" The cop was quite accomodating.

The clip fell out of the auto as the dazed cop tried to unholster it...no chambered round...and he couldn't get to it to slide it back home, so he used the backup.

Yup...can't imagine anyone thinking they'll be able to load under all circumstances. But folks die for their opinions every day.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Of course, the weeping family of the dead worthless little prick is asking why he had to die. The bat was sawed off with electrical tape on the remaining handle...a weapon in its morphed life. Hit the cop, and stood over him ready to hit him again as he kept yelling "go ahead, shoot me!" The cop was quite accomodating.

The clip fell out of the auto as the dazed cop tried to unholster it...no chambered round...and he couldn't get to it to slide it back home, so he used the backup.

Yup...can't imagine anyone thinking they'll be able to load under all circumstances. But folks die for their opinions every day.

Sounds like"Suicide by Cop" to me.I just hope the cop can deal with it mentally.
We had a suicide by train not to long ago.As my friends train approached the guy walked between the rails and laid down on his back.As the Locomotive neared,he looked back and gave the crew the finger.He was then promptly turned into a meatball about 12 inches in diameter.
But i digress.

[Cobrabill]

AMF-you are correct,it IS a personal choice.However,you saying that it takes "minimal time" to "rack around"in a life or death scenario is patently false.Any time you MUST use two hands to operate a handgun*you are losing valuable time.

As far as a better man goes...nahh,i just know my weapon well enough to dis-assemble and re-assemble it blind folded.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

AMF-you are correct,it IS a personal choice.However,you saying that it takes "minimal time" to "rack around"in a life or death scenario is patently false.Any time you MUST use two hands to operate a handgun*you are losing valuable time.

As far as a better man goes...nahh,i just know my weapon well enough to dis-assemble and re-assemble it blind folded.

I agree. I think that loaded and ready is the best state of readiness.

The part that I disagree on, is that I think it's a minor reduction in tactical readiness for a MAJOR increase in safety to NOT have a round chambered. Particularly in the case of a pilot with a closed cockpit door between him and any potential threat.

I used a graduated posture. If I'm out late at night or driving through a bad part of town or I'm walking to my vehicle (and I have an opportunity to rack a round) then I'll carry ready to go.

Most of the time, if I'm out eating with my family or shopping at Wal Mart or whatever, I carry the gun, with a magazine in, but no round in the chamber.

We could debate the ideosynchracies of personal defense tactics all day long. There are others that would argue that if you get into a physical confrontation, NOT involving a weapon, then having a loaded gun on you almost FORCES you to draw it (unless you like to fist fight and roll on the ground with a loaded firearm pointing at your person). In almost ALL states, that's going to at best get your carry permit revoked, and at worst get you some jail time or probation for brandishing a weapon (you have to have ACTUAL threat to your life to justify drawing your gun on someone....so until the guy puts his hands around your throat.....being in a fist fight doesn't absolutely satisfy that requirement.)

It's a personal preference issue. The overall larger point (and if you're a gun enthusiast or LE professional I'm sure you agree) is that under almost all circumstances (not involving another person) if your weapon goes off, it's your fault. The the government's...not the program...yours.

I know all my guns in and out. I can disassemble and reassemble blindfolded as well. I carry a Glock, which the ONLY operable way to fire the gun is to pull the trigger (which also has a safety on it). You could take the gun and drop it off a 5 story building and it won't fire (I've actually seen footage of a loaded Glock being placed inside a steel container and shaken like hell and it won't go off.) Even still, I can't stomach having a loaded gun pointed at my crotch (at least not for very long). That's why I choose to not rack a round. It's just an extra safety precaution.

I truly agree that if you have to use two hands, it's a reduction in readiness, but I think the likelihood of the scenario is small (even minute) and the safety advantages are HUGE.

I fully support pilots carrying pistols. But I also think that they ought to have more training than a couple of weeks at some course. You wouldn't let a pilot fly a plane if he had only a couple of weeks training.....why would you want him to carry an instrument that's designed to kill people and could potentially cause a catastrophic accident on a civilian aircraft?

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by AMF

I fully support pilots carrying pistols. But I also think that they ought to have more training than a couple of weeks at some course. You wouldn't let a pilot fly a plane if he had only a couple of weeks training.....why would you want him to carry an instrument that's designed to kill people and could potentially cause a catastrophic accident on a civilian aircraft?

Your continued highly opinionated criticism of a program about which you obviously know absolutely nothing about are highly amusing. Graduated escalation? Chamber a round? In a scene of battle that starts with no warning and is the size of a double closet? You have obviously never set foot in a jet cockpit, yet you're trying to tell me the proper way to defend it. You're just cracking me up.

Go back to your air conditioned range or your street officer techniques (which are fine for the street but not a cockpit) and leave this to those of us who actually have a clue as to what's going on. Opinion born in ignorance and espoused as fact only serves to make the bearer of such look like a fool.

[Excaliber]

Well I'll be, I missed that part about it being in Fresno, just caught the tail end of a news report. Thanks for filling in the gaps Jamo.

Makes an interesting 'case study' for our discussion here as well. Clip fall's out, no round in the chamber, in the heat of battle your pretty much screwed at that point. Pilot's not going to have a backup, game over.

[Jamo]

I just can't understand keeping a gun unloaded in order for it to work with a holster design that does not work for its intended use in a cockpit. If you're not going to have one chambered in that setting, then the holster's trigger safety is not needed.

Next thing you know they'll ground all the planes so they can zip-tie the triggers.

We all agree re training...that's a given. But bad design is bad design.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by Jamo

I just can't understand keeping a gun unloaded in order for it to work with a holster design that does not work for its intended use in a cockpit. If you're not going to have one chambered in that setting, then the holster's trigger safety is not needed.

Next thing you know they'll ground all the planes so they can zip-tie the triggers.

We all agree re training...that's a given. But bad design is bad design.

I agree with you. I think the holster is dumb, but if I thought for a second that it was going to cause me to have an accidental discharge, I wouldn't chamber a round.

I'm in complete agreement to change the dumb policies. In the meantime, you don't go along with them and have an AD and then blame them....

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by AMF

I'm in complete agreement to change the dumb policies. In the meantime, you don't go along with them and have an AD and then blame them....

This is a quantum leap from where you began. Good on you - acknowledging that there is a fundamental problem, beyond the presumed, that must be addressed.

I said it a while ago, I say it now - that holster design is obscene. It is predetermined failure, accentuating every opportunity for disaster.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

This is a quantum leap from where you began. Good on you - acknowledging that there is a fundamental problem, beyond the presumed, that must be addressed.

I said it a while ago, I say it now - that holster design is obscene. It is predetermined failure, accentuating every opportunity for disaster.

I never said I supported the dumb policies, I simply said they're not a valid excuse for unintentionally discharging your weapon.

Altering the policies wouldn't eliminate the underlying problem, which is training and familiarity. You could get rid of the holster altogether, but somehow there are a bunch of other guys who are using the stupid thing and THEY were somehow able NOT to discharge their weapon. Maybe they were lucky........

[Jamo]

OK..let's have some new folks weigh in.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Jamo

OK..let's have some new folks weigh in.

Sorry Jamo, I probably went overboard. I just tend to have a low tolerance for stupidity. I'll shut up now.

[Jamo]

It's ok...I've lost it a few times in court. $100 fines from the judge for calling opposing counsel a "half-wit" and a "moron" (two memorable incidents) usually usually calms me down.

Hmmm...me thinks me just found a way of doing the next fund drive for CC.

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Hmmm...me thinks me just found a way of doing the next fund drive for CC.

? - since you're the judge here, you gonna fine yourself?

[Jamo]

Well of course not...judicial immunity!

[Jamo]

Again, rather than reading repeats of earlier statements...any new voices on this issue?

[Doug I]

yup

1. Scrap the whole dang scheme as it is right now
2. Start a new scheme from the ground up (your call on an intended pun )
2a. All crew with flight deck access are to have compulsory weapons training. You don't fly as crew till you pass. You're paid to be trained.
2b. Weapon is where pilots can reach it, in a standard holster
2c. Weapon is removed each crew change and checked for ammo. Flight deck is secured during weapon check.
2d. Weapon is kept without a round chambered.

During normal flight activities the weapon is not touched. Only time it's handled is while on the ground with the door locked. I don't think anyone could bust through the door and over power the crew before either pilot reacts, draws, and fires.

Tell my why this won't work.

Doug
ex pilot

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Doug I

yup

1. Scrap the whole dang scheme as it is right now
2. Start a new scheme from the ground up (your call on an intended pun )
2a. All crew with flight deck access are to have compulsory weapons training. You don't fly as crew till you pass. You're paid to be trained.
2b. Weapon is where pilots can reach it, in a standard holster
2c. Weapon is removed each crew change and checked for ammo. Flight deck is secured during weapon check.
2d. Weapon is kept without a round chambered.

During normal flight activities the weapon is not touched. Only time it's handled is while on the ground with the door locked. I don't think anyone could bust through the door and over power the crew before either pilot reacts, draws, and fires.

Tell my why this won't work.

Doug
ex pilot

Everything is reasonable except "2d" and you can't make regs about "when it is handled".