Airlines losing money, How could they not???

[jams]

I remember buying tickets to CA over 15 years ago for about $350. I just purchased tickets to CA for about $368.

During the past 15 years the cost of fuel has gone up (trippled) as I am sure operating costs have increased. How can they stay in business.

Believe me I am happy with the price?

Something to ponder

[PatBuckley]

Planes are full, prices are low, passengers get treated like crap, safety inspections are skipped, costs are going up.

Seems to me I would raise prices.

I guess those dummies would just as soon go out of business, which they are!

Dummies.

[Excaliber]

Aloha airlines, belly up, no warning. 2000 people 'hit the street', pink slip in hand. We got THREE airlines here with barely enough people to support TWO. Mesa Air Group came in with $39 one way fare to the outer islands, down from a $100. The other two followed suit, it became clear over a year ago, SOMEBODY was going down. Who ever ran out of money first, that would be Aloha...

You can bank on it, fares will be back to $100 shortly!

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Aloha airlines, belly up, no warning. 2000 people 'hit the street', pink slip in hand. We got THREE airlines here with barely enough people to support TWO. Mesa Air Group came in with $39 one way fare to the outer islands, down from a $100. The other two followed suit, it became clear over a year ago, SOMEBODY was going down. Who ever ran out of money first, that would be Aloha...

You can bank on it, fares will be back to $100 shortly!

Ernie,
Mesa was sued by Hawaiian and won a huge settlement for predatory practices against Mesa. Mesa got caught red handed with internal documents showing that they knew they could not make money at these prices and they had no real business plan, rather their goal was to bankrupt Aloha and Hawaiian in order to take over on their own. I'm no corporate attorney, but in addition to being obviously sleazy, that's apparently illegal as well. Aloha had a suit ready to be heard soon. Even though they went under, the suit will still be heard, and popular legal opinion in the industry says that Aloha (or their creditors) will prevail for another huge settlement. This will probably put Mesa under, which for almost all in the industry other than those working for Mesa is a good thing. Mesa is the pond scum of the industry.

[J. T. Toad]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

they knew they could not make money at these prices and they had no real business plan, rather their goal was to bankrupt Aloha and Hawaiian in order to take over on their own.

How does this differ from Walmart's business practices?

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by J. T. Toad

How does this differ from Walmart's business practices?

Who says they differ? I don't know much about Wal Mart other than what I read, none of which is good. I live on Long Island in NY, and believe it or not we have very little presence here by Wal Mart, they're pretty much a non factor around here. I kind of like it that way, reading what I do about them.

[Excaliber]

Thanks for bringing up the 'rest of the story' 767Jockey, you summed it up nicely. Might be to late for Aloha, but I think they will prevail in the next suit, like Hawaiian did in the first. Question is, will either airlines actually collect any money, and will it be to little to late for Hawaiian?

Mesa really pisses me off, I hope somebody goes to jail over their actions!

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Thanks for bringing up the 'rest of the story' 767Jockey, you summed it up nicely. Might be to late for Aloha, but I think they will prevail in the next suit, like Hawaiian did in the first. Question is, will either airlines actually collect any money, and will it be to little to late for Hawaiian?

Mesa really pisses me off, I hope somebody goes to jail over their actions!

Join the club - Mesa pisses EVERYONE off!

[427 S/O]

As I understand, United has also terminated their agreement with MESA?.

[427 S/O]

Let's add a little insult to injury..........

NEW YORK, April 7, 2008 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Aftermarket Technology Corp. (Nasdaq: ATAC - News) will replace Mesa Air Group Inc. (Nasdaq: MESA - News) in the S&P SmallCap 600 after the close of trading on Wednesday, April 9, 2008. As of today's close of trading, Mesa Air Group had a market capitalization of approximately $33 million, ranking 600th in the index.

[imagine2frolic]

Jams,

In 1960 I flew from SFO to Chicago for $300. I was only 9, so I don't remember if that was round trip, but I believe it was.....1960

[Excaliber]

Actually it differs a bunch, MESA was flat out busted with their hand in their cookie jar for illegally using 'data' they acquired under false pretenses. The data laid out the entire business plan(s) of the competitors. With that knowledge they had a significant advantage. To hide the evidence the CEO deleted vast quantities of data from his computer, then he got busted for doing so. His 'excuse'? He was deleting 'porn' that was against company policy, HIS porn. Of course MESA slapped him on the hand while they handed him a very nice 'retirement' package. No question, the guy took a hit for the team. There is tough competition and then there is 'predatory' competition, there is a difference. By the way, the jury didn't buy the 'erasing porn' excuse, they saw right through it.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Actually it differs a bunch, MESA was flat out busted with their hand in their cookie jar for illegally using 'data' they acquired under false pretenses. The data laid out the entire business plan(s) of the competitors. With that knowledge they had a significant advantage. To hide the evidence the CEO deleted vast quantities of data from his computer, then he got busted for doing so. His 'excuse'? He was deleting 'porn' that was against company policy, HIS porn. Of course MESA slapped him on the hand while they handed him a very nice 'retirement' package. No question, the guy took a hit for the team. There is tough competition and then there is 'predatory' competition, there is a difference. By the way, the jury didn't buy the 'erasing porn' excuse, they saw right through it.

Mesa is a class act from top to bottom, huh?

[Jamo]

Yup...low prices allow the great unwashed to fly. That's what Greyhound is for.

Used to enjoy flying...better schedules from areas that needed it (AirCal and PSA alternating every half hour here in California), good looking folks serving you instead of unionized *****y folks, fewer kids crying, fewer third worlders with five generations of family stuffing the overheads with kim chi pots, etc.

Same thing has happened to Vegas...but they are at least turning away from the Wally World persona for their properties of late.

JMHO as a business traveler, and somewhat in jest.

[Ron61]

I used to fly out of San Francisco a lot and flew PSA many times back in the dark ages. They were one of my favorite airlines. I don't even know if Redding has any flights now, as they used to have one in the morning and one in the afternoon. Then United pulled out and some other small commuter line came in, but I don't know if they are still in business or not. As for the price of tickets, the company paid for mine and one day when I was signing for the tickets I looked at the prices as I was going from Redding to S.F. and from there to Chicago. The price from Redding to S.F. was more than the one from S.F. to Chicago by a few dollars. And the maintenance at Redding sucked too.

Ron

[J. T. Toad]

It sounds very similar to the Dwayne Goode lawsuit against Walmart. Walmart was accused of selling beneath wholesale cost, at least until the competition, usually local, went under.

[clayfoushee]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Yup...low prices allow the great unwashed to fly. That's what Greyhound is for.

Used to enjoy flying...better schedules from areas that needed it (AirCal and PSA alternating every half hour here in California), good looking folks serving you instead of unionized *****y folks, fewer kids crying, fewer third worlders with five generations of family stuffing the overheads with kim chi pots, etc.

Same thing has happened to Vegas...but they are at least turning away from the Wally World persona for their properties of late.

JMHO as a business traveler, and somewhat in jest.

So Ron, my friend, are you advocating a return to Federal regulation of the industry so we can return to the days you are waxing so poetic about above?

It was very nice for the airline industry in those "halycon," pampered passenger, regulated days. Everyone was guaranteed a profit, and the government decided who flew where, how often, how much passengers were charged, how much employees got paid, etc. If there was an employee strike, there was a legal mutual aid pact among the airlines, and the ones not on strike were allowed to assess a surcharge in order to pay the struck airline for lost revenue.

Ah, the good old days . . . Given the way things are going, perhaps we shall see a return to that, because there will be no other choice except driving.

Of course, this is also posted "somewhat in jest," but you get what you pay for in a free-enterprise system, and its all a function of supply and demand.

[767Jockey]

Regulation was a less than perfect solution. Clearly, deregulation is a ridiculous mess as well.

How bad is it? You guys won't believe this, but it's absolutely true. My flights are ALWAYS delayed. I'd guess conservatively at least half the time, probably more. Honestly, with very rare exceptions, almost every delay I suffer through with my passengers is air traffic control induced. The ATC system is clearly broken; it's a mess. Air traffic control is run by the Federal Government. So what does the Federal Government do to show the passengers it's trying to fix delays? They fine airlines that they have delayed too often.

Yup, you heard me right. They delay us constantly. Then, when they delay us too much, they fine us for being too delayed too often. Beautiful scheme, huh? Here's what we have seen from the Feds: Deregulate the airlines so every hedge fund and Tom, Dick and Harry wanting to suck up a piece of the huge cash flow that any airline generates can start some piss into the wind airline that'll be lucky to survive a year selling $39 tickets from NYC to FLA. Fill the sky with all these deregulated aircraft, and at the same time don't do a thing to increase the sophistication and capacity of the ATC system. When the ensuing chaos results, blame the airlines and fine them. Welcome to the age of deregulation.

Now, on top of that chaos, throw in airline management that is almost always more interested in stock price than actually running an airline. Have them destroy any remnants of employee morale by cutting their employee's pay and stealing their retirement by perverting the bankruptcy system. Then, to top it all off, at the end of the year these thieves take multi million dollar bonuses because of all the money they "saved" the company. Essentially all the money given up by the employees gets taken home in bonuses by the execs. Think of that the next time a flight attendant growls at you. She or he likely just got hosed and watched some upper or middle management take the money they gave up home for themselves. It's a beautiful system. Robin Hood in reverse so to speak.

There is no lower life form on Earth than the current crop of Airline Managers. They have no shame. The crown prince of them all has to be this clown Glenn Tilton who (allegedly) runs United. Just Google his name and start reading. It's very entertaining, unless you happen to be one of his employees who he just fleeced on his yearly multi, multi million dollar bonus. Check out the AA management team as well - a real swell group of guys too.

The result is a broken system, schedules that can't run nearly on time, major metropolitan airports so choked they can barely function anymore, and the entire population of Florida over the age of 65 who all feel that they have the God given right to travel anywhere in the country for $39.95.

What a mess..........

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Regulation was a less than perfect solution. Clearly, deregulation is a ridiculous mess as well.

How bad is it? You guys won't believe this, but it's absolutely true. My flights are ALWAYS delayed. I'd guess conservatively at least half the time, probably more. Honestly, with very rare exceptions, almost every delay I suffer through with my passengers is air traffic control induced. The ATC system is clearly broken; it's a mess. Air traffic control is run by the Federal Government. So what does the Federal Government do to show the passengers it's trying to fix delays? They fine airlines that they have delayed too often.

Yup, you heard me right. They delay us constantly. Then, when they delay us too much, they fine us for being too delayed too often. Beautiful scheme, huh? Here's what we have seen from the Feds: Deregulate the airlines so every hedge fund and Tom, Dick and Harry wanting to suck up a piece of the huge cash flow that any airline generates can start some piss into the wind airline that'll be lucky to survive a year selling $39 tickets from NYC to FLA. Fill the sky with all these deregulated aircraft, and at the same time don't do a thing to increase the sophistication and capacity of the ATC system. When the ensuing chaos results, blame the airlines and fine them. Welcome to the age of deregulation.

Now, on top of that chaos, throw in airline management that is almost always more interested in stock price than actually running an airline. Have them destroy any remnants of employee morale by cutting their employee's pay and stealing their retirement by perverting the bankruptcy system. Then, to top it all off, at the end of the year these thieves take multi million dollar bonuses because of all the money they "saved" the company. Essentially all the money given up by the employees gets taken home in bonuses by the execs. Think of that the next time a flight attendant growls at you. She or he likely just got hosed and watched some upper or middle management take the money they gave up home for themselves. It's a beautiful system. Robin Hood in reverse so to speak.

There is no lower life form on Earth than the current crop of Airline Managers. They have no shame. The crown prince of them all has to be this clown Glenn Tilton who (allegedly) runs United. Just Google his name and start reading. It's very entertaining, unless you happen to be one of his employees who he just fleeced on his yearly multi, multi million dollar bonus. Check out the AA management team as well - a real swell group of guys too.

The result is a broken system, schedules that can't run nearly on time, major metropolitan airports so choked they can barely function anymore, and the entire population of Florida over the age of 65 who all feel that they have the God given right to travel anywhere in the country for $39.95.

What a mess..........

Assolutely 100% on the money! Again...Greyhound for the masses, fewer flights because fewer can afford them, but more flights where you need them.

Local issues...I'm getting damn tired of flying glorified crop dusters out of FAT to get to SFO or LAX. At least Express Jet flies jets to nearby airports (Ontario, Long Beach, etc.) and they are booked solid. I tend to drive for anything less than 300 miles now.

I want the employees flying my fat ass around happy, and I want them to smile at me when I get on board. I don't give a flying phuk if they want to clean their gun in the cockpit while it's on auto-pilot, so long as they are happy.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by clayfoushee

So Ron, my friend, are you advocating a return to Federal regulation of the industry so we can return to the days you are waxing so poetic about above?

It was very nice for the airline industry in those "halycon," pampered passenger, regulated days. Everyone was guaranteed a profit, and the government decided who flew where, how often, how much passengers were charged, how much employees got paid, etc. If there was an employee strike, there was a legal mutual aid pact among the airlines, and the ones not on strike were allowed to assess a surcharge in order to pay the struck airline for lost revenue.

Ah, the good old days . . . Given the way things are going, perhaps we shall see a return to that, because there will be no other choice except driving.

Of course, this is also posted "somewhat in jest," but you get what you pay for in a free-enterprise system, and its all a function of supply and demand.

Buddy...every time we discuss this, I say...YES!!!!!!

I asspecially loved the mutual aid setup (we used it in lettuce strikes)...kept things moving along and stews (screw PC) actually looked in the mirror and tried a little harder in the morning to look good.

I totally believe in regulated socialist policies for the upper classes. I also liked the original telephone system (breakup of Ma Bell) compared to the pit of snakes we have now. Going capitalist (deregulation) on energy is what caused the blackouts in California.

Screw making things cheaper so more can afford them...people used to work hard for these benefits. Now they expect them. By going capitalist on what should be regulated utlities...we've become socialists.

/s/ Republican for Regulation of Stuff I Like

If it ain't broke...don't fix it!