Airlines losing money, How could they not???

[767Jockey]

Regulation was a less than perfect solution. Clearly, deregulation is a ridiculous mess as well.

How bad is it? You guys won't believe this, but it's absolutely true. My flights are ALWAYS delayed. I'd guess conservatively at least half the time, probably more. Honestly, with very rare exceptions, almost every delay I suffer through with my passengers is air traffic control induced. The ATC system is clearly broken; it's a mess. Air traffic control is run by the Federal Government. So what does the Federal Government do to show the passengers it's trying to fix delays? They fine airlines that they have delayed too often.

Yup, you heard me right. They delay us constantly. Then, when they delay us too much, they fine us for being too delayed too often. Beautiful scheme, huh? Here's what we have seen from the Feds: Deregulate the airlines so every hedge fund and Tom, Dick and Harry wanting to suck up a piece of the huge cash flow that any airline generates can start some piss into the wind airline that'll be lucky to survive a year selling $39 tickets from NYC to FLA. Fill the sky with all these deregulated aircraft, and at the same time don't do a thing to increase the sophistication and capacity of the ATC system. When the ensuing chaos results, blame the airlines and fine them. Welcome to the age of deregulation.

Now, on top of that chaos, throw in airline management that is almost always more interested in stock price than actually running an airline. Have them destroy any remnants of employee morale by cutting their employee's pay and stealing their retirement by perverting the bankruptcy system. Then, to top it all off, at the end of the year these thieves take multi million dollar bonuses because of all the money they "saved" the company. Essentially all the money given up by the employees gets taken home in bonuses by the execs. Think of that the next time a flight attendant growls at you. She or he likely just got hosed and watched some upper or middle management take the money they gave up home for themselves. It's a beautiful system. Robin Hood in reverse so to speak.

There is no lower life form on Earth than the current crop of Airline Managers. They have no shame. The crown prince of them all has to be this clown Glenn Tilton who (allegedly) runs United. Just Google his name and start reading. It's very entertaining, unless you happen to be one of his employees who he just fleeced on his yearly multi, multi million dollar bonus. Check out the AA management team as well - a real swell group of guys too.

The result is a broken system, schedules that can't run nearly on time, major metropolitan airports so choked they can barely function anymore, and the entire population of Florida over the age of 65 who all feel that they have the God given right to travel anywhere in the country for $39.95.

What a mess..........

[Excaliber]

You know, my son is enrolled in a four year commercial flight license college progam. I'm getting worried here!

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

You know, my son is enrolled in a four year commercial flight license college progam. I'm getting worried here!

Oh, jeez.
How far along is he? Where is he going to school? Email or PM me, Ernie.
Doug

[AMF]

As stated above, there are certain industries that need a sensible and albeit, necessary level of regulation.

It doesn't take an MBA to know that any industry with large barriers to entry or exit in the marketplace lend themselves to abuse and need a certain amount of regulation.

Our utilities are a perfect example. One only need to look at what's happened in California recently to see what happens when you swing the pendulum too far in either direction. You get a crisis. The airline industry is similar. It's not what most would consider a hard core commodity, but air travel is pretty much indespensible to a large portion of American business.

We simply could not afford the fallout from a deregulated war between the airlines. On the flip side, the government needs to stay out of the market as much as possible to encourage at least some (if not the most) healthy competition as possible (to keep consumers protected by capitalist/competitive pressures).

I think that the petrolium industry is quickly heading in the direction of the utilities industries. Like air travel, it has huge impacts on the performance of our economy (even more so) and if the air or oil companies can't figure it out, then it's time that Uncle Sam do his job and earn his pay and step in.

I'm not advocating for a huge amount of regulation here, I'm tend to be a libertarian. But I also acknowledge that not EVERYTHING can be a capitalist blood letting. We have some certain "indepensibles" to our civilization and air travel has become one of them (not for leisure obviously, but business and industry).

I've studied case study after case study (the typical how Southwest Airlines became successful type) and something I do not understand is why or how they've all continued to operate on a variable price business model.

When you take a typical charter, whether it's a boat, ferry, bus, etc, it's usually for a small or medium company that knows what it costs to operate that charter. They tack on profit, burden, overhead and what they charge is a standard rate (it may vary by day or holiday or whatever, but it's scheduled and advertised).

If the price of fuel goes up, they publish an announcement that their costs are going up. There's no negotiating the fare. They don't gouge the $hit out of you for traveling over Thanksgiving. They know their costs, they know their profits. The only variable is customer numbers. The way they control that is to operate one vehicle/craft and when that one is overwhelmed to the point that they need another, they start operation of another.

Obviously there's some complexities that can be added in (operating temporary service during peak periods, etc), but the point is, if there's a spectrum, with variable price on one end and fixed price on the other, it seems to me that the variable price model ISN'T working.

I understand that the airline industry has huge capital issues (it's not like you can run out and buy another aircraft off the shelf) and have large variables as to fuel, labor, etc. But I think the model that says "let's operate profitable on our leg from Houston to Tampa" and start from there. If that flight starts filling up, then add another flight for that leg.

It just seems to me (and I'm not an expert, so I'm sure there's going to be some rebuttal here) that the airline industry as a whole is trying to manage chaos and they're getting chopped up in all the dynamics of the market. When you find yourself lost, start at the beginning. Win the next play. Then focus on winning that series. Then the win that half. And before you know it, you've won the game. Win the next game. Then focus on making the playoffs.....etc. etc. etc.

I could sum it up by saying.....can anyone tell me what it will cost to fly from NY to LA this year on the 22nd of December? It'll change 7 ways from Sunday between now and then....because they're trying to leverage as much profit from every passenger as possible. Instead, charge what it costs, add a profit and move on with life. First come, first serve.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by clayfoushee

So Ron, my friend, are you advocating a return to Federal regulation of the industry so we can return to the days you are waxing so poetic about above?

It was very nice for the airline industry in those "halycon," pampered passenger, regulated days. Everyone was guaranteed a profit, and the government decided who flew where, how often, how much passengers were charged, how much employees got paid, etc. If there was an employee strike, there was a legal mutual aid pact among the airlines, and the ones not on strike were allowed to assess a surcharge in order to pay the struck airline for lost revenue.

Ah, the good old days . . . Given the way things are going, perhaps we shall see a return to that, because there will be no other choice except driving.

Of course, this is also posted "somewhat in jest," but you get what you pay for in a free-enterprise system, and its all a function of supply and demand.

Buddy...every time we discuss this, I say...YES!!!!!!

I asspecially loved the mutual aid setup (we used it in lettuce strikes)...kept things moving along and stews (screw PC) actually looked in the mirror and tried a little harder in the morning to look good.

I totally believe in regulated socialist policies for the upper classes. I also liked the original telephone system (breakup of Ma Bell) compared to the pit of snakes we have now. Going capitalist (deregulation) on energy is what caused the blackouts in California.

Screw making things cheaper so more can afford them...people used to work hard for these benefits. Now they expect them. By going capitalist on what should be regulated utlities...we've become socialists.

/s/ Republican for Regulation of Stuff I Like

If it ain't broke...don't fix it!

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Regulation was a less than perfect solution. Clearly, deregulation is a ridiculous mess as well.

How bad is it? You guys won't believe this, but it's absolutely true. My flights are ALWAYS delayed. I'd guess conservatively at least half the time, probably more. Honestly, with very rare exceptions, almost every delay I suffer through with my passengers is air traffic control induced. The ATC system is clearly broken; it's a mess. Air traffic control is run by the Federal Government. So what does the Federal Government do to show the passengers it's trying to fix delays? They fine airlines that they have delayed too often.

Yup, you heard me right. They delay us constantly. Then, when they delay us too much, they fine us for being too delayed too often. Beautiful scheme, huh? Here's what we have seen from the Feds: Deregulate the airlines so every hedge fund and Tom, Dick and Harry wanting to suck up a piece of the huge cash flow that any airline generates can start some piss into the wind airline that'll be lucky to survive a year selling $39 tickets from NYC to FLA. Fill the sky with all these deregulated aircraft, and at the same time don't do a thing to increase the sophistication and capacity of the ATC system. When the ensuing chaos results, blame the airlines and fine them. Welcome to the age of deregulation.

Now, on top of that chaos, throw in airline management that is almost always more interested in stock price than actually running an airline. Have them destroy any remnants of employee morale by cutting their employee's pay and stealing their retirement by perverting the bankruptcy system. Then, to top it all off, at the end of the year these thieves take multi million dollar bonuses because of all the money they "saved" the company. Essentially all the money given up by the employees gets taken home in bonuses by the execs. Think of that the next time a flight attendant growls at you. She or he likely just got hosed and watched some upper or middle management take the money they gave up home for themselves. It's a beautiful system. Robin Hood in reverse so to speak.

There is no lower life form on Earth than the current crop of Airline Managers. They have no shame. The crown prince of them all has to be this clown Glenn Tilton who (allegedly) runs United. Just Google his name and start reading. It's very entertaining, unless you happen to be one of his employees who he just fleeced on his yearly multi, multi million dollar bonus. Check out the AA management team as well - a real swell group of guys too.

The result is a broken system, schedules that can't run nearly on time, major metropolitan airports so choked they can barely function anymore, and the entire population of Florida over the age of 65 who all feel that they have the God given right to travel anywhere in the country for $39.95.

What a mess..........

Assolutely 100% on the money! Again...Greyhound for the masses, fewer flights because fewer can afford them, but more flights where you need them.

Local issues...I'm getting damn tired of flying glorified crop dusters out of FAT to get to SFO or LAX. At least Express Jet flies jets to nearby airports (Ontario, Long Beach, etc.) and they are booked solid. I tend to drive for anything less than 300 miles now.

I want the employees flying my fat ass around happy, and I want them to smile at me when I get on board. I don't give a flying phuk if they want to clean their gun in the cockpit while it's on auto-pilot, so long as they are happy.

[Excaliber]

Sent you a PM 767!

"Republican for Regulation of Stuff I Like". Gotta a nice ring to it Jamo.

[AMF]

One thing I've noticed more and more on flights is that we generally leave late

But then, the pilot always comes on and says something like "sorry about the delays folks....blah blah blah...but it looks as though we can make up some time and that'll put us in "destination x" on time"

Then, as sure as were were going to leave late, we land and arrive at the terminal only to wait for 20 minutes to get an avaiable gate.

I don't know whether or not it costs more fuel to make up time (I'm assuming the flights are designed to run at optimal cruising speeds for fuel economy) but it makes no sense to burn up extra fuel, just to arrive early and sit and wait for a gate. That happens on AT LEAST 2 out of every 3 flights I take.

[767Jockey]

Ha! Happens al the time. Here's the deal:

Lets say you're traveling from New York LaGuardia (Good luck by the way - talk about delays!) to Orlando. Say from wheels up to wheels down the flight time is 2:45. Now, here's the trick - remember when I told you above that the Federal Gov't delays us then fines us for being late? The way we avoid that now is to say that the flight leaving at 1:00 PM, with a flight time of only 2:45, has an arrival time in Orlando of 5:00 PM. That gives us 1:15 extra time to "make up the time" and still be on time. It's all a game.

Essentially you start to build in the delays, attempting in advance to compensate for them knowing full well that you're not causing them, have no control over them, and those very people causing them will hold you responsible for them.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Ha! Happens al the time. Here's the deal:

Lets say you're traveling from New York LaGuardia (Good luck by the way - talk about delays!) to Orlando. Say from wheels up to wheels down the flight time is 2:45. Now, here's the trick - remember when I told you above that the Federal Gov't delays us then fines us for being late? The way we avoid that now is to say that the flight leaving at 1:00 PM, with a flight time of only 2:45, has an arrival time in Orlando of 5:00 PM. That gives us 1:15 extra time to "make up the time" and still be on time. It's all a game.

Essentially you start to build in the delays, attempting in advance to compensate for them knowing full well that you're not causing them, have no control over them, and those very people causing them will hold you responsible for them.

Interesting.

I never complain about delays due to aircraft maintenance. I'm a senior rated jumpmaster, so I know that there's no such thing as "a perfectly good aircraft." They're all in some semblence of repair and maintenance.

But it's hard to believe anything the airline tells you as far as delays go. I don't know when they passed the law, but lately, if it even HINTS of raining, the airlines all claim "weather delays." That way, if you get stuck during a layover, they don't have to put you up for the night in a hotel. There's this notion now that "just blame everything on the weather."

I always laugh at people who ***** about delays due to aircraft maintenance. You gotta be in a big hurry to want to fly in a broken aircraft. But again, there's no way from the passenger's standpoint to know whether or not it's truly maintenance or just amin....or another flight, or the crew, or whatever.

I think consumers understand (at least in part) the challenges with running an airline and schedules and what not. What adds insult to injury are things like lost baggage....etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the reason why every retard with a suitcase the size of a motorcyle tries to bring it on the aircraft and stuff it in the overhead bin (or carry on 6 bags) is because they don't want their crap to get lost. They also don't want to go through the hassle of baggage claim.

I LOVE plane side baggage check/claim. Like the old days. Give em your bag before you walk up the steps and onto the aircraft. When the plane lands....everyone gets off the plan IMMEDIATELY and you take your bag and go. Perfect. You save 30 minutes for each flight by doing that. It takes 45 minutes to load the aircraft and another 45 minutes to unload the passengers because we still allow people to bring their bags into the cabin.

I think there's a lot of "little" things that have contributed to the overall consumer perception of airline service and the low ratings.

[Joe Wicked]

767 I have noticed that before. I tend to listen to the pitch of the engines just out of habit of listing to my ride. I have noticed times that the pitch seems really low, like we are just cruising along, and at other times it is much higher and the flight time is shorter than before. I always assumed that the flight was scheduled to be longer to save fuel costs, but to try and maintain schedule, they were throttling up. I also assumed that delays were scheduled in, but I assumed it would be like 30 min or less/flight to try and maximize the schedule.

[Ron61]

I just saw in the news that American air lines is grounding a lot of planes to inspect some wiring. I would rather be delayed than have the plane explode or lose control 5 miles up in the air. And as for the being late, even back when I was working and flying a lot, I thought that was just a natural part of flying. We hardly ever left on time and once set in the docking area for a good amount of time while they replaced a flat on one of the landing gear wheels. This was at San Francisco and no one on the plane was doing any complaining. Once I left San Francisco for Chicago 2 hours late, and thought sure there was no way I would make my connecting flight to Columbus as I only had a 30 minute layover. But I made it. When we landed at Chicago, they had some how gotten the bed of the truck they lift the luggage up to the storage compartment wedged into the doorway and had spent 3 hours trying to figure a way to get it out without tearing up the edges so the hatch wouldn't seal. Every flight was so late that my luggage made it through with me.

Ron

[casaleenie]

40,000 new Federal employees hired to abuse the flying public... I hate those farkin' bus people they hired to treat me like an arswhole just because they can....and I'm paying their salaries... I'm retired so I have time to drive from one place to another.. Sometimes it's costlier to drive then to fly but the fact that I don't have to play their stupid bs games makes it seem cheaper... there are times when it's just too far a distance or an ocean gets in the way and I have to fly so I bite the bullet and buy a ticket with so many regulations attached that I wanna puke...
No other industry I can think of has so many abuses of power attached to a ticket...

Fark em' --- I'll drive when I can...

[meat]

Originally Posted by casaleenie

40,000 new Federal employees hired to abuse the flying public... I hate those farkin' bus people they hired to treat me like an arswhole just because they can....and I'm paying their salaries... I'm retired so I have time to drive from one place to another.. Sometimes it's costlier to drive then to fly but the fact that I don't have to play their stupid bs games makes it seem cheaper... there are times when it's just too far a distance or an ocean gets in the way and I have to fly so I bite the bullet and buy a ticket with so many regulations attached that I wanna puke...
No other industry I can think of has so many abuses of power attached to a ticket...

Fark em' --- I'll drive when I can...

Meh. If it's less than 1,000 miles it's cheaper to fly myself than to take a big flying bus full of angry, smelly people. 'course, if it's less than 300 miles, it's silly to fly myself unless I just want to built up hours. At that point, I'll just drive.

Fifteen years ago, there were alot fewer people flying than there are now. Back then, planes were quite a bit less efficient than they are now and generally flew fewer passengers.

Your pal,
Meat.

[fsstnotch]

Ugh... Ron you mentioned the worst airport I have ever been in! Ohare!!! It's really close between Ohare and Detroit, but every single time I am in either we are either circling the airport for an hour before landing or we are sitting on a HOT plane for an hour not moving at all in taxi but waiting on proper manifests! Last time I was at Ohare, we circled for so long that I was starting to get REALLY hot and sick. Took my sweatshirt off and that was a little better. we FINALLY landed and i thought all was good. then all of a sudden, NOPE, not ok! I got my sweatshirt to my face just in time to catch the small amount of vomit. Needless to say, it went in the trash! haha

I can't wait to get out of here... but I DREAD the flight into CHI and out to Cleveland!

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by fsstnotch

Ugh... Ron you mentioned the worst airport I have ever been in! Ohare!!! It's really close between Ohare and Detroit, but every single time I am in either we are either circling the airport for an hour before landing or we are sitting on a HOT plane for an hour not moving at all in taxi but waiting on proper manifests! Last time I was at Ohare, we circled for so long that I was starting to get REALLY hot and sick. Took my sweatshirt off and that was a little better. we FINALLY landed and i thought all was good. then all of a sudden, NOPE, not ok! I got my sweatshirt to my face just in time to catch the small amount of vomit. Needless to say, it went in the trash! haha

I can't wait to get out of here... but I DREAD the flight into CHI and out to Cleveland!

By far the most dysfunctional airport out there traffic and delay wise is O'Hare. Close runner ups are LaGuardia, DC National, Boston, Philly and Hotlanta. DFW is knocking on the door trying really hard to join this illustrious group. I avoid them all like the plague. Want to see a pissed off grumpy pilot? Send me to one of these hellholes.

Now talk about a real mess, get me started on DC National. No pilots want to see ANY airports closed, but I'll make a joyous exception here. This place is an accident waiting to happen. What a clusterfork this place is.

[427sharpe]

; Maybe my wife will chime in when (if??) she gets home. Flew into Dayton, OH on business Monday....supposed to fly back Thurs...American.....MD80...CANCELLED! She was fuming at the AA employees, and if you knew her you'd know that says volumes because the better half is an EXTREMELY slow burn. She is driving into Cleveland tomorrow to fly out Friday...American....NO MD80 even though thats what the AA people tried to get her to do.....shes not taking any chances! What a cluster! AA is giving away $500 vouchers plus promising reimbursement on hotels and expenses. Hmmmm; average 100 people per flight. Cancel 1100 today and 900 tomorrow, 2000 flights lost x 100 people per= 200,000 people x $500 voucher= $100,000,000.00 + say $250 average expense reimb. per =
$150,000,000.00 in losses in TWO DAYS! Now it's REALLY EASY to see how they lose money! I bought stock on a gamble when AA nearly keeled over..under $2..sold at +/-$30...may be time to ride the pig again!

[Jamo]

Naw...DFW is the worst, and Miami's coming up quick...plus it stinks. In fact, all of Florida stinks.

You want to experience a real Mongolian Cluster F***? Heathrow. Third worlders from all over the freeking third world are there. But everyone that works there is so damn nice and proper, you feel like apologizing to them.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Naw...DFW is the worst, and Miami's coming up quick...plus it stinks. In fact, all of Florida stinks.

You want to experience a real Mongolian Cluster F***? Heathrow. Third worlders from all over the freeking third world are there. But everyone that works there is so damn nice and proper, you feel like apologizing to them.

Yeah, Heathrow takes the cake. I've flown in there many a time. I was talking domestically. Tell you what though, CDG Paris is not a whole lot better. Go figure, the French are screwed up. Who woulda thought?
Actually MIA isn't too bad from a pilot point of view. I can think of dozens I like better, but it's far from the worst. Now if we're talking cities instead of airports, that's a WHOLE 'nother story.....

[Jamo]

For the passengers/cattle, Miami just starts getting worse when you land...damn construction that never ends...car rental places that take forever to get to because the damn access roads are so screwed up...security lines are backed up forever so people can have their cardboard box luggage checked...everyone stinks from the sweat and the damn Cuban food...the local citizens who lost brain cells floating over on inner tubes who work there have an attitude that begs you to come down hard (which seems to work).

Went fishing at Islemorada in December with some Gasholes...thank God for the Keys! Some conch and beer and everything mo betta...until you have to go back to that cesspool.

Back to Heathrow, only neat thing about circling it forever is that it has great views if the sky is clear...saw Windsor about seven times last time we flew in.

Only airport I actually enjoy...SLC.

I miss the old John Wayne.