Question for you gun owners.....

[4pipes]

My daughter just called to say that their neighbor just had a tragic accident. The husband was cleaning his guns and accidentally fatally shot himself, leaving two small boys and a wife.

I've heard of these kind of accidents over the years and don't understand how they can happen. I've never owned a firearm, so I don't have an appreciation of the series of actions that lead to these accidents. Can you enlighten me......I'm just really curious. Is there a point in the cleaning process when you both point the barrel at yourself AND pull the trigger?

[terry251]

Yup, it's the point right after you slam the 6th beer and forgot all the basic firearms safety rules. Some say it is the fumes from the gun oil, others blame sheer stupidity. My vote is on scenario number two - unless it was intentional, then all bets are off.

Terry

[PANAVIA]

I dont beleive it, there has to be something else going on.

Rule 1 it to clear the weapon of all ammo prior to service/cleaning .

[Jamo]

Honestly Dave, whether it's alcohol/drug induced or forgetfulness, it results from not following a specified protocol each and every time. With revolvers, it means emptying out all 5 or 6 chambers. I'm not privy to numbers, but I would think more accidents occur with automatics...the person releases the clip, but forgets there's one in the chamber.

[Cobrabill]

All the details aren't known or are being kept quiet.When i was in grade school we were told a classmate "accidentally" killed himself while cleaning his .22 RIFLE.

[Tinker51]

I have never been able to figure out how people manage this feat but they do with regularity. It has always seemed to me a little odd to clean a weapon with the chamber closed. Aside from the safety factor I find it just plain easier to clean a pistol or rifle with the chamber open and revolvers with the cylinder open.

On a different subject. I recently heard the story of what has to be both the stupidest woman in the world and the luckiest woman in the world. She is a trap shooter shooting a autoloader. She loaded a shell and when she pulled the trigger there was only a small pop. The primer fired but the powder charge (if there was one) did not fire. Not knowing that this was a bad thing she put another shell in the gun and fired it again. Same thing. Finally somebody walking by the trap where she was shooting alone noticed that she had a misfire and was about to load another shell. He stopped her and got the dowel to push the wad out of the barrel. It took 20 minutes of work but he eventually got FIVE wads with a shot charge between each pressed from the barrel. I can't imagine how unbelievably lucky and stupid she was that she had five misfires and I shudder to think what would have happened if the sixth shell (which she was loading when she was stopped) had gone off.

[Ron61]

Dave,

I am sorry about your loss, but I feel that most of these accidents are just caused by carelessness. In the safety class we teach, never point the weapon at yourself weather cleaning it or not. Also with my semi-auto, I disassemble it to clean it and the barrel is in my hands, out of the gun. On a rifle, always clear the magazine, and then whatever type it is, make sure the chamber is clear by either puling the bolt a couple of times or jacking the lever a couple of times. Then lock it open to run your cleaning tool through it. Revolvers have been very well covered in the above posts.
Also many of the accidents we have reported at the range from cleaning were after the cleaning was done and the clip or magazine was filled again. For some reason without checking, people pull the trigger and they have jacked a round into the chamber. Most don't seem to really have an explanation as to why they did it. The main safety point stressed is NEVER POINT THE WEPON AT YOURSELF, ALWAYS POINT IT IN A SAFE DIRECTION DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU ARE AND ALWAYS HANDLE ALL WEAPONS AS IF THEY ARE LOADED.

Ron

[trularin]

It is hard to "accidently" shoot yourself cleaning a gun...unless you just do not know what to do. I think it stems from house rules for firearms, "NO LOADED GUNS IN THE HOUSE." Even then, you would have to cock the firearm to be able to fire it.

[4pipes]

After reading these posts, I believe it would be difficult for a knowledgeable gun owner to fatally shoot himself while cleaning a gun.

Maybe it's the setting. Maybe depressed folks have suicide in the back of their minds and sit down to clean their firearms and while in the act of cleaning decide it's time.

Unfortunately, in this case, his family was home.

We have a friend who actually went to a shooting range, rented a pistol and shot himself there.

So like someone already posted, maybe they are just classified as "gun cleaning" accidents.

[will butterwort]

army firing range, prone, locked/loaded, range off. would give order commence fire, every time--he would say commence--before he could say fire, pow--a shot rang out.All heck broke out then, find that you know what.Here,s the chilling one--firing range day is over, entire company standing with rifles pointed toward sky, firinf range off. give order pull trigger--every time--pow, a rifle would discharge seems like, scare me to death.Vietnam fellas would be walking along clicking safety off and on, you could hear them, sometimes behind you.Not good anytime this happens.Will-alabama

[uncltodd]

With you, Will.

IMHO, you cannot shoot yourself "cleaning" a handgun or long-gun.

You might be "playing with it" or "messing with it" or just "dicking with it" in front of friends. You might be enebriated or high. Young and stupid, old and stupid.

You might get dead, or maybe a friend.

To me, this falls back on parents, on upbringing.

You wanna handle my handgun/longgun? Fine. I work the action, make sure it is empty, then hand it to you.

I expect you to do what I just did, work the action and make sure it is empty.

This is MANDATORY. Or you just go in the kitchen, drink coffee, and go home.

There are 12-year-old kids that I trust behind me with a loaded 12-Ga.

I have friends in their 50's that I would not trust behind me with a slingshot.

An aside to 4Pipes, a minor's firearm fatality in my neck of the woods is almost always classified as a "gun-cleaning accident."

Thirty years ago I was outraged at such blatant forensic lies, but...

About 10 years ago, a good friend's teenage son was showing off his new scattergun to his buddies, did something stupid, and wound up dead in his upstairs bedroom. High school honour student. His whole life in front of him.

Coroner said, "gun-cleaning accident."

He was dead, you don't get any older than that, Will can relate.

In this instance, the kid was dead, he left a grieving family, and the Deputy Coroner did...

Something I think most of us would do, he signed off on the least painful report the family could receive.

I did not say it was "right," or legal, or proper, I'm saying he did what I would have done.

And then gone home and got drunk on my butt.

UT

[trularin]

Praise Jessel UT...tell it like it is!!!

[OZCOBRA]

Originally Posted by uncltodd

With you, Will.

IMHO, you cannot shoot yourself "cleaning" a handgun or long-gun.

You might be "playing with it" or "messing with it" or just "dicking with it" in front of friends. You might be enebriated or high. Young and stupid, old and stupid.

UT

WITH YOU 100%...It just shouldn't happen!!!If it does common sense has obviously gone out the window...so that leaves shear stupidity!!!
RESPECT AT ALL TIMES!!
My two bobs worth anyway!!!

[Ant]

Sorry for your loss, and in this sort of event questions are asked.

I have my H&K Expert .45 pistol, and a couple of other handguns, and quite frankly if the rules are followed its very hard to shoot yourself, unless intentional. Checking a firearm is clear drop the magazine, rack the slide all this pointed in a safe direction and "LOOK" to see if the chamber is clear!

I feel a lot more dangerous firearms are lever action rifles like a Winchester Model 94e I had in .44magnum, when I was shooting small game as I was preparing to shoot from "wait for it" sitting in the car, as I was working the lever action, pointing the muzzle towards the car window it went off and just missed the roof as I was closing the lever, all my fault not the rifle, but if I was stationary and a mate was standing beside the car..........!?!????

[Ron61]

With my 9 MM it is impossible to shoot yourself while cleaning it. First you drop the magazine, and then pull the slide back to lock it. This will eject any round that may have been in the chamber. Then you dismantle the weapon into 4m parts with the slide barrel, stock, and spring all laid out on paper. After cleaning the barrel, I then do the slide, and trigger action. Once this is done I assemble the weapon and BEFORE putting the 15 round magazine back in, I release the slide which puts it into the de-cock position and with the magazine out there is no round to be loaded into the chamber. Mine has the police window and I always look to see for sure that it is clear of a round in the chamber every time I pick it up.

Ron

[Jamo]

Nothing is impossible...given enough alcohol/drugs or stupidity, or both.

[BigGuy]

There must be more to this story.....

Sometimes it is better for it to be a "gun cleaning accident" than suicide. I remember someone eating their gun, but because the family was Catholic. I think it was called an "gun cleaning accident". Probably better for the Life ins. too.

Very unfortunate for the family to go thru something like this.

.

[Ron61]

Ok, maybe the word impossible was not the correct one to use. But I know my weapon and you can not clean it with it assembled. And if you want to just run a rag down the barrel with it assembled, you have to pull the slide back, and lock it with a locking lever. This would eject any round in the chamber and it completely disables the firing mechanism. Trigger is disabled, firing pin can't move and wouldn't reach a round if you stuck one in by hand and tried.
To me the people that shoot themselves while cleaning a gun aren't cleaning it. They normally do it before they start the process or after they have finished it.
Once I have mine cleaned and reassembled, I have to unlock the locking lever and let the slide forward. I do this without a magazine in it. That puts the hammer in de-cock position. You could hit it with a hammer and it won't move the firing pin but may break the gun's hammer. I then take it out of de-cock and put in the magazine and jack a round into the chamber just the way you would with any semi-automatic. I also have a selector that requires a dime or screwdriver to turn which will put the weapon into the double action revolver mode which means that I have to pull the trigger to pull the hammer back each shot just like a regular revolver.
So I will defer to your statement that nothing is impossible, but in my case I could not do it while I am actually cleaning the weapon.


Edit: To add word selector.

Ron

[Jamo]

Ron...same with my S&W 40...but dagnabit if stupid drunk dopers can't find a way to do the impossible.

[Ron61]

Jamo,

Have to agree with you on that. Some of them even make me look some what intelligent. You should sit in on some of the safety and qualification classes we have. You have probably already did so down there as I am sure they have much the same rules as up here, but what some people do and say is enough to make us refuse them safety certificates to get a CCP.

Reminds of me of something I read and took to one of the classes about a couple of bright hunters. On the way home the fuse for the headlights in their pick up blew and they had no more fuses. So one genius put a 22 Long in the fuse holder. About a mile down the road the heat caused it to go off and it hit the river right in the you know what. He almost died by the time they got help to him.

Ron