McCain's VP Pick

[VRM]

The basis is VERY sad on both sides. McCain himself is telling outright lies about Obama in order to win. That indicates that his own platform is too weak to win on its own merits. He is also saying that his campaign has gone negative because Obama refused to meet him in his proposed town hall format (also untrue, but McCain did not like the counter offer). I do not see that as a valid reason to lie about what the other candidates position is.

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by VRM

McCain himself is telling outright lies about Obama in order to win.

Indeed? - got some quotes for us?

Originally Posted by VRM

He is also saying that his campaign has gone negative because Obama refused to meet him in his proposed town hall format (also untrue, but McCain did not like the counter offer). .

So - in other words, McCain DIDN'T lie, Obama DID refuse, but, well, um, hey, McCain is scum for not accepting modifications to a McCain-presented forum.
You DID notice it wasn't an Obama-presented forum, right?

Originally Posted by VRM

I do not see that as a valid reason to lie about what the other candidates position is.

Huh. Don't see the lie - seems Obama tried to change horses mid-stream and got caught for it.
But there is truth in here - Obama clearly doesn't want to go toe-to-toe in an open, unstructured forum, for reasons we can speculate on all day long.
No lie in that!

[VRM]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

Indeed? - got some quotes for us?

So - in other words, McCain DIDN'T lie, Obama DID refuse, but, well, um, hey, McCain is scum for not accepting modifications to a McCain-presented forum.
You DID notice it wasn't an Obama-presented forum, right?

Huh. Don't see the lie - seems Obama tried to change horses mid-stream and got caught for it.
But there is truth in here - Obama clearly doesn't want to go toe-to-toe in an open, unstructured forum, for reasons we can speculate on all day long.
No lie in that!

McCains campaign has ads saying that Obama would raise taxes on working families, including those that make $42K or less, and he approved those messages. McCain himself has also made the same remarks during campaign speeches. It is not true.

I never called McCain scum for not accepting Obamas counter-proposal to the town hall meeting. Both campaigns want their candidate to have the best advantage possible when debating the other guy. I expect this, and they usually compromise. Obamas counter offer did include a town hall, along with other types of joint events. So far, McCains campaign has not responded to the counter offer. They seem content to say that Obama does not want to meet them at all, conveniently leaving out the part that Obama did agree to meet them under a different format.

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by VRM

McCains campaign has ads saying that Obama would raise taxes on working families, including those that make $42K or less, and he approved those messages. McCain himself has also made the same remarks during campaign speeches. It is not true..

Many, many times posted in here and other threads - Obama's intent for the inheritance and capital gains taxes are to greviously escalate them. Do you believe people who make less than $42K don't have families or invest?

Originally Posted by VRM

I never called McCain scum for not accepting Obamas counter-proposal to the town hall meeting. Both campaigns want their candidate to have the best advantage possible when debating the other guy. I expect this, and they usually compromise. Obamas counter offer did include a town hall, along with other types of joint events. So far, McCains campaign has not responded to the counter offer. They seem content to say that Obama does not want to meet them at all, conveniently leaving out the part that Obama did agree to meet them under a different format.

I know you didn't call him scum - my apologies to you if it seemed implied to you, that wasn't the intent. With regard to the town hall meets, the format was simple and - essentially - bereft of advantage to ANYONE; that was the appeal. The Obama camp seeks to build in some advantage - not unexpected, but deviously outside the purpose and scope of the original venues. That doesn't sound like not wanting to meet? - there will be regulated debates where they'll have tons of control over the environment...McCain's challenge has been about showing the world your b*lls and stepping out of the contrived, manipulated big show, an act of courage manifestly rejected by the Obama camp.

[VRM]

Turnpike boy,
Sure people who make $42K can leave inheritance and have capital gains.

Obama says he will not raise capital gains past 20%. And inheritance taxes will not be levied under $7 million per couple. How many couples making $42K do you think have estates worth $7 million? I don't like the estate tax and capital gains tax either, but I also think that most of america will do better under Obamas tax plan than McCains. I would get a tax cut of about $1500. Not so much a big deal for me as is is less of a % of my income than someone who makes $42K and is on a much tighter budget.
If a tax rebate for $300 is supposed to provide an economic stimulus, what is $1500 for every married couple who owns a home going to do? And the best part is that while those making over 250K will end up having to pay more (2-3% if I am reading the numbers correctly) they also stand to make a lot more back with business that are more profitable, and better returns on investments.

Steve

[VRM]

Turnpike Boy,
I forgot to mention;
McCain is more comfortable in the town hall format than Obama. That gives him a BIG advantage. McCain had the stage at the GOP convention rebuilt so that he could be 'in' the crowd.
I agree that it would be nice to have both candidates go at it in formats that they were not as comfortable in. McCain didn't go for it to the extent that Obama wanted him to. I don't blame McCain at all. I think McCain would actually be weaker in Obamas favoured format that Obama would in McCains.
McCain has a devastating sense of humour that works well in the town hall format, but a lot of that is negated in a structured debate where Obama can use his better memory to throw obscure facts at McCain. McCains temper may also get the better of him when he feels like his countering remarks are not hitting home; and Obama will not react to McCains barbs nearly as much as a crowd will.

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by VRM

Turnpike Boy,
I forgot to mention;
McCain is more comfortable in the town hall format than Obama. That gives him a BIG advantage. McCain had the stage at the GOP convention rebuilt so that he could be 'in' the crowd.
I agree that it would be nice to have both candidates go at it in formats that they were not as comfortable in. McCain didn't go for it to the extent that Obama wanted him to. I don't blame McCain at all. I think McCain would actually be weaker in Obamas favoured format that Obama would in McCains.
McCain has a devastating sense of humour that works well in the town hall format, but a lot of that is negated in a structured debate where Obama can use his better memory to throw obscure facts at McCain. McCains temper may also get the better of him when he feels like his countering remarks are not hitting home; and Obama will not react to McCains barbs nearly as much as a crowd will.

In other words, Obama is the winner in a scripted, manipulated, utterly controlled environment. Just like everyday life is, right?

Obscure facts are devastating in an academic world - they're f*cking useless in the real world.

Speaking for me and me alone, I would much rather be represented by a thinking man than an automaton with a better memory.


-Roger

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by VRM

Turnpike boy,
Sure people who make $42K can leave inheritance and have capital gains.

Good to see you're aware of that...it WILL include you.

Originally Posted by VRM

Obama says he will not raise capital gains past 20%.

Wrong. He is on record at 28% on capital gains (you selling your house, Steve? - pony up!) and 39.6% on ordinary dividend income.

Originally Posted by VRM

And inheritance taxes will not be levied under $7 million per couple. How many couples making $42K do you think have estates worth $7 million?

What does that matter?? Inheritance taxes, at ANY level, are piracy. Pure and simple. Taxes on those estates were paid all along...what makes you think the Gov't is ENTITLED to take more? Get real, willya?

Originally Posted by VRM

I don't like the estate tax and capital gains tax either, but I also think that most of america will do better under Obamas tax plan than McCains. I would get a tax cut of about $1500. Not so much a big deal for me as is is less of a % of my income than someone who makes $42K and is on a much tighter budget.

No, you won't. You will get as much as a $1000 credit (only if you're married - as much as $500 if you're single), which is an enormous difference from a tax cut - Obama has not offered out a single tax cut to date.

Originally Posted by VRM

If a tax rebate for $300 is supposed to provide an economic stimulus, what is $1500 for every married couple who owns a home going to do? And the best part is that while those making over 250K will end up having to pay more (2-3% if I am reading the numbers correctly) they also stand to make a lot more back with business that are more profitable, and better returns on investments.

Apart from your misapplication of just how much will come back to you, and in recognition that the cost of living (i.e., food, heat, transportation) is what is crushing those on the low end of the income stratus, what basis do you have for thinking that any business is suddenly going to "stand to make a lot more"? Any more than the $300 did? This is fantasy - Obama's tax credit will only offset taxes due - it is not a $1000 (maximum) check in hand. Please - read what this syncophant of the Democratic Party is saying - it sure ain't what YOU think it is.


-Roger

[VRM]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

Good to see you're aware of that...it WILL include you.

Wrong. He is on record at 28% on capital gains (you selling your house, Steve? - pony up!) and 39.6% on ordinary dividend income.

What does that matter?? Inheritance taxes, at ANY level, are piracy. Pure and simple. Taxes on those estates were paid all along...what makes you think the Gov't is ENTITLED to take more? Get real, willya?

No, you won't. You will get as much as a $1000 credit (only if you're married - as much as $500 if you're single), which is an enormous difference from a tax cut - Obama has not offered out a single tax cut to date.

Apart from your misapplication of just how much will come back to you, and in recognition that the cost of living (i.e., food, heat, transportation) is what is crushing those on the low end of the income stratus, what basis do you have for thinking that any business is suddenly going to "stand to make a lot more"? Any more than the $300 did? This is fantasy - Obama's tax credit will only offset taxes due - it is not a $1000 (maximum) check in hand. Please - read what this syncophant of the Democratic Party is saying - it sure ain't what YOU think it is.

-Roger

Roger,
Obamas initial numbers did say 28% - he has since revised that to no more than 20%. And that 20% is only applicable to households making $250K or over. So, no - It will not apply to me.

You will get no argument from me on estate taxes.

My household will get a $1K credit, as well as a mortgage credit of 10% of my motgage interest. More people will get this credit as you do not need to itemise for it.

McCains tax plan will do a lot less for me and the majority of Americans.

And regarding debates, while I do think it is good to see our candidates in both situations, how often do you think Bush or Clinton went in front of a cheering/jeering crowd for an anything goes session? Most events that a President attends will be structured, or will have a limited scope of discussion that will play better to Obamas strengths.

Steve