The American pastime of hunting...questions

[GlynMeek]

Guys, in all seriousness, I truly want to learn here. We had an interesting discussion on one of the Lounge topics about my perception that Palin likes to “kill things for a hobby”, and I was somewhat pilloried for my European view on hunting... On the premise of "when in Rome...", I would like to see if I can start to understand the American attraction to hunting and would love to hear your input.

Let me give you my perspective first if I may, so you understand where my views come from…

1) I am a city boy, born and bred in Sheffield (England’s steel town). Grass, trees and open spaces bigger than Hyde Park make me nervous…. I spent most of my career in big cities…London, Paris, Frankfurt, Dallas and now Austin (which is SMALL town to me…lol). I do therefore understand that hunting is much more of a ‘country’ pastime than a city boy pastime, so I will concede that limitation on my part.
2) I have no problem with owning guns for protection…I have one!
3) My father was in the meat trade; I love steak, lamb, liver(!), kidneys(!), venison, pork etc. etc. I worked as meat porter on Southampton docks and as a ‘dear skinner’ for a local meat & game place during college vacations, so I am quite comfortable with dead animals and their place in the food chain…I even had a brief (VERY brief…after the first “Kosher kill”) spell working in a slaughter house, so HAVE been involved in “killing what I eat”.
4) I have even been quail and pheasant hunting here in Texas. I have to admit that I enjoyed it (LOL), and remember the guide warning us that we could “shoot at whatever we wanted, just don’t hit the dog or the truck”.
5) I can understand the allure of back-to-nature, wandering the woods with a bow and arrow (all right, perhaps even a hunting rifle) where the animal has some kind of a chance to get away, and if you eat EVERYTHING you kill, I can accept and partly understand that…BUT, there are two aspects of 'hunting' that I do NOT understand and need your help…

6) Trophy hunting…let’s find a rare (usually inedible) animal and go kill it so we can fill its head full of sawdust and then stick it on our wall so we can boast that we killed it?
7) …and the hardest one of all to understand…let’s all dress up to the nines in (often ludicrous) faux camoflage hunting gear (hats and all), erect a ‘hide’ right next to a watering hole, climb into said hide with a few beers and when the animals come for a drink of water let’s kill them “for sport”….THAT ONE is KILLING to me, NOT HUNTING…wtf is the SPORT in THAT?

So, with no need for name calling and PLEASE NO POLITICS (LOL), can you help me understand the last two?

Glyn

[392cobra]

6) I still stand by my standard on hunting - if I'm not going to eat it,I'll just enjoy watching it.
Shooting an animal just to mount it's head or make a rug outof it's hide is not for me.

7) Sounds nuts to me.

[J. T. Toad]

6) penis envy

6) tradition... why do people buy T-shirts.. to say, "I was there. I did that. You haven't and look how few are able to do what I did."

I am pretty sure "Dirty Harry" made a movie about this.

6) the thrill of fear, if you're not being "7"

The FarSide had a great cartoon of this... a guy shoot a bear peacefully sipping from a stream with bambi at his side.... he mounts it in the most fearsome pose claiming "it was either the bear or me"

7) Convenience and laziness. It's a mentality of "I can, so why not?"

careful to criticize, it may seem like a reach, but.... why the cobra?

[BeanCounter]

Glyn,

Now that you've explained yourself I see nothing wrong in your thought process, just your presentation. I pictured you as some wild eyed ALF groupie who burns down things because animals are not given the same rights as humans. My Dad took me out in the field my first time when I was barely a year old. Carried me around on his back until I was old enough to walk. I got my first shotgun when I was 7. Had to carry the shell in my pocket and ask permission to shoot at something. We could head into a heavily wooded area and walk around for 4 hours and come back out within 50 yards of the car. He taught me how to shoot and when I got drafted I fired Expert in every small arms in the Army's inventory. Those capabilities served me well later on when my life depended on it. I've hunted squirrel, rabbit, quail, pheasant, sharptails, huns, chukar, deer, elk, pronghorns, javelina's, Arkansas razorbacks, and a list as long as your arm. My first year I moved to Utah I drew out for a hunt on the only wild buffalo herd left in the continental US. Now there is some healthy meat for you, much better health wise than beef. My second year I drew out for a mountain lion. We chased him for three days and we finally got him cornered on an outcropping I swung my horse around and pulled out my rifle and slung it across my saddle. After about 30 seconds I put it back in the scabbard and pulled out my camera and took some pictures. It just didn't make sense to me. He hadn't raided my stock so I had no reason to kill him. When I turned around and looked at the guide all he said to me was "I know what you mean", and we rode back to camp. One of the best hunting trips I ever had.

And I think only the Brits dress up in those ridiculous trouser and herringbone jackets and that stupid little hat. I'm generally freezing my ass off so I wear a Browning insulated coat and coveralls. And I shoot and over/under not a side by side.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Glyn;

I've hunted small game/large game and most types of feathered critters and fished all my life.......I can see where your coming from and you have some very valid thoughts.......here's mine...........

I was always taught when you hunted, you hunted ethically, by the rules of the state/land. You always,always hunted for food or fur, never just "to kill something".99% of the game I kill, I eat, the other 1 % that I don't eat, goes to someone that does eat it, no meat is ever wasted... True hunters do just that, hunt, the guys that kill an animal for the sake of killing an animal are NOT hunters............

Only exception are nusiance animals which we have plenty of in my state, beavers,nutria come to mind, but they are being used for alligator food on gator farms and hides sold to the fur industry.....still nothing wasted.....

6; I understand your point and I don't condem "trophy hunters", but, most "trophy" type animals are way past their prime for breeding and will have a hard life, so trophy hunting in that aspect does make some sense....game biologist will tell you most old animals die from starvation or disease, so, they recommend taking them out of the herd....

7;totally agree, it's not a sport and those guys are NOT HUNTERS.......Same for "canned" hunts and "fenced" hunts in my opinion....


As far as the dressing up part goes, well, the Brits have the corner on that market...

Oh BTW, over/under for me also, never could get used to the side by sides.........

David

[turnpike boy]

Whuddayougot against side by sides, Bernie/David!? I love 'em - but then that's what I was broken in with, so....

Glyn, the answer to #6 is not all clear. Most guys I know don't trophy hunt; if the head is on the wall, it's also something that made a lot of dinners too. That said, I do know a couple guys who DO trophy hunt....but only after the regular season hunt is done, and they're on a supplementary permit for more. With the freezer mostly full, they are after the one more necessary to fill the freezer and they want an animal that's extraordinary - which also means they oftentimes come home empty-handed. I honestly don't know anybody who hunts for just the wall-hanger. I'm also glad I don't, because that kind of horsesh*t just isn't right with the world. Doubtless there are some that do, but they're not hunters - they're a$$holes.

And to #7, see the last 5 words above.

Deer hunting in the Gulag of New Jersey must, by law, done stationary - meaning, you are forbidden to pursue the animal. Most sit in tree stands, some have those lovely "Texas towers" as blinds. It must also be done with a shotgun, so ranges are closer, minimizing the possibility of mounting your next-door-neighbor's head on the wall. It is also stultifyingly boring.

Bird hunting, of any species, is another matter altogether. A beautiful day in the fields and woods, usually with an amazing dog and a couple friends, is a joy unto itself. Coming from Merry Old England, I am a hair surprised that you didn't get a chance to do some there. No matter - it is a day you must take, and once done, will long to do again. Can't put the right words to describe it adequately - try it and you'll understand.



-Roger

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Roger;

Nothing wrong with side by sides, I've actually had 2 of them, just could not shoot them well, kinda like looking down a 4-lane highway looking over the barrels, and I find a good over/under to be better balanced..........just preference I guess........

I own a bunch of guns, my wife says way too many, the one I shoot the best is a 16 gauge, Remington 1100 given to me for Christmas 1969 by my grandfather, not sure why, but it just "fits" me right and I shoot it extremely well............

David

[BeanCounter]

David,

I've got over 20 shotguns. I like my little Miroku LW 20 O/U for quail. I still shoot my Monkey Wards .410 that I got when I was 7 when quail hunting too. I've got 6 Model 12's but for some reason I can't shoot the shuckers as well. I've got a Remington 1100 too which is nice so I agree with you there.

Turnpike Boy,

Nothing like making a 800+ yard shot with the .375 H&H on a 7 point elk off the bluffs of Gravel Mountain there North of Jackson Hole. Now there's a head that's hung over my fireplace.

[GlynMeek]

Originally Posted by J. T. Toad

careful to criticize, it may seem like a reach, but.... why the cobra?

English car...Shelby stole (er...borrowed) it...rofl!!!!!

Seriously, I have coveted one ever since I saw it over here. I truly never saw one in the UK! Quintessential sports car to me, and I've owned MGs, Triumphs, Autin-Healey's, 280Zs and lots of Porsches...NOTHING at all out there has the 'soul' of a Cobra for me!

Glyn

[GlynMeek]

Originally Posted by BeanCounter

Glyn,

Now that you've explained yourself I see nothing wrong in your thought process, just your presentation. I pictured you as some wild eyed ALF groupie who burns down things because animals are not given the same rights as humans. My Dad took me out in the field my first time when I was barely a year old. Carried me around on his back until I was old enough to walk. I got my first shotgun when I was 7. Had to carry the shell in my pocket and ask permission to shoot at something. We could head into a heavily wooded area and walk around for 4 hours and come back out within 50 yards of the car. He taught me how to shoot and when I got drafted I fired Expert in every small arms in the Army's inventory. Those capabilities served me well later on when my life depended on it. I've hunted squirrel, rabbit, quail, pheasant, sharptails, huns, chukar, deer, elk, pronghorns, javelina's, Arkansas razorbacks, and a list as long as your arm. My first year I moved to Utah I drew out for a hunt on the only wild buffalo herd left in the continental US. Now there is some healthy meat for you, much better health wise than beef. My second year I drew out for a mountain lion. We chased him for three days and we finally got him cornered on an outcropping I swung my horse around and pulled out my rifle and slung it across my saddle. After about 30 seconds I put it back in the scabbard and pulled out my camera and took some pictures. It just didn't make sense to me. He hadn't raided my stock so I had no reason to kill him. When I turned around and looked at the guide all he said to me was "I know what you mean", and we rode back to camp. One of the best hunting trips I ever had.

sh!t Bernie, this one made me cry! No joke, we are all pretty much the same I guess. Thanks for reading and not judging my hyperbolic rantings too harshly!

Glyn

[GlynMeek]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

Glyn;


6; I understand your point and I don't condem "trophy hunters", but, most "trophy" type animals are way past their prime for breeding and will have a hard life, so trophy hunting in that aspect does make some sense....game biologist will tell you most old animals die from starvation or disease, so, they recommend taking them out of the herd....

As far as the dressing up part goes, well, the Brits have the corner on that market...

Interesting, thanks for that...and yes, we are in NO position to throw stones, but baggy camo gear is so much worse than herringbone and tweed...ROFL

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by BeanCounter

David,

I've got over 20 shotguns. I like my little Miroku LW 20 O/U for quail. I still shoot my Monkey Wards .410 that I got when I was 7 when quail hunting too. I've got 6 Model 12's but for some reason I can't shoot the shuckers as well. I've got a Remington 1100 too which is nice so I agree with you there.

Turnpike Boy,

Nothing like making a 800+ yard shot with the .375 H&H on a 7 point elk off the bluffs of Gravel Mountain there North of Jackson Hole. Now there's a head that's hung over my fireplace.

I probably have as many shotguns myself, been collecting Brownings made before 1936 for some time now, have 8 of them, 2 model 12s, one 12 and one 16, I shoot both of them well, got a 20 you want to let go????????it'll finish my set, also looking for a shooter 97....I'm kinda starting to get into the cowboy action shooting and need a 97 for the three gun competition......

I probably have as many 16s as 12s, started off with the Reimngton 1100 when I was a kid and have always liked the 16s..

I do most of my hunting with either an el cheapo spanish made over/under, but it's well balanced and I shoot it well,made some modifications to it,trigger job,ported barrels,and a few other little things, the other gun I use the most is a Beretta AL390, second sweetest shooter behind the 1100s, to me anyway..........

Most of my shotgunning is for ducks/geese and we have to use steel shot, so I don't use any of the older guns,wish I could...the model 12s are my small game guns, the 1100 16 gauge is mostly used for doves (we hardly have anymore quail around these parts) and skeet shoots.

David

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Interesting, thanks for that...and yes, we are in NO position to throw stones, but baggy camo gear is so much worse than herringbone and tweed...ROFL

The herrigbone and tweed do look the part on a guy mounted on a nice horse getting ready for a fox hunt, very traditional......

my hunting clothes are geared more for comfort and use, small game and upland bird hunting usually invovles a lot of walking in thick stuff, briars and brambles, I think you'll call the stuff.......you see a lot of guys wearing baggy camo,cause they got tons of the stuff dirt cheap at thousands of army surplus stores as well as mail order houses all over the country..........

One thing I do admire about the Brits is that they take the time and lessons to learn proper shooting and gun fitting.... most Americans just buy a gun off the rack at Wally World and go hunting the next day without ever sighting it or testing the pattern......

Boy, this thread sure beats those political threads, for me anyway..........

David

[turnpike boy]

There really isn't a shotgun I've met that I don't like , and I regularly shoot a Beretta over/under (682) at targets, but side-by's just love me .

Bernie, like you, there's a passel of scatterguns in the vaults, in all actions, even a 20 ga. Charles Daly O/U made by Miroku...imagine that. Unfortunately the only 800 yd shots made in these parts are with police lasers (yeah, they're that hungry for revenue ). And with a .375...that's a lotta hold-over. Good on you - the mount belongs on the wall. PA permits rifle hunting in counties to the west of me, but it's generally still pretty short (<250 yds) shooting due to the woods. An old 8mm Mauser with my handloads is just fine for deer there.

Dave, you should shoot whatever fits you best - and it doesn't matter what that may be. Take it out and use it, 'cause that's some of the best therapy anybody can have.

If there is a favorite, I guess it would be......uh......I dunno. I enjoy the hell out of all of 'em; AR's, Model 700's, O/u's, side-by's, single-shots, pumps, autos, whatever. On any given day, it seems one will stand out more and that's the one that I'll take.


-Roger

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Glyn;

Hunting means different things to different folks, some just want to shoot, some want to limit out and some just want to be outdoors and enjoy the woods as much as the hunt......

I used to deer hunt quite a bit, now I hardly ever go, to me the most satisfation and fun is and has been duck hunting...We're usually from 4 to as many as 7 in a duck blind, and being with "the guys" is just as much fun as a getting a limit of ducks.... Some of my most memorial hunts were when we killed the fewest birds!!!!!!!! And ANY sunrise over a a decoy spread is just something to see........

I have taken my daughter duck hunting since she was about 10 years old, she's now 22 and looks forward to our yearly duck hunts, those hunts, I rarely fire a shot, let her do the shooting, still have some pictures of her first hunt when she killed a limit of mallards, hunting is not always about the kill, but the hunt itself....

My second year I drew out for a mountain lion. We chased him for three days and we finally got him cornered on an outcropping I swung my horse around and pulled out my rifle and slung it across my saddle. After about 30 seconds I put it back in the scabbard and pulled out my camera and took some pictures. It just didn't make sense to me. He hadn't raided my stock so I had no reason to kill him. When I turned around and looked at the guide all he said to me was "I know what you mean", and we rode back to camp. One of the best hunting trips I ever had.

Spoken like a true hunter, I can relate to that...........

I've been duck hunting since I was about 10 years old, this season will be my 43rd season, and I still spend a sleepless night the night before opening day!!!!!!!!!!! for me, bringing home some game is always nice, but just being outdoors and seeing nature is just as much fun if not more, when I quit enjoying that aspect, is when I quit hunting.

David

[bomelia]

Glynn, did not your country of origin enjoy chasing fuzzy red dogs with horses and hound dogs? No offense, but why do UKers see themselves as more advanced than USAers? I have long since put my guns up. But I do not see others that like to hunt as being beneath my sensibilities. Down here in dixie, we still hunt beagles for their pelts. Make great shoes.

Mike

[GlynMeek]

Originally Posted by bomelia

Glynn, did not your country of origin enjoy chasing fuzzy red dogs with horses and hound dogs? No offense, but why do UKers see themselves as more advanced than USAers? I have long since put my guns up. But I do not see others that like to hunt as being beneath my sensibilities. Down here in dixie, we still hunt beagles for their pelts. Make great shoes.

Mike

LOL...no offense taken, and UKers don't see y'all (!) as less advanced than they are, it's just that we are still pi$$ed at losing The Empire and we have to blame someone...the US just happens to currently have the biggest Empire...remember, everyone who wasn't Roman hated the Romans...lol. It's still Roosevelt's fault as far as the Ukers are concerned...made us break it up as a condition of saving our raggedy a$$es in WWII.

I TRULY don't see hunters as beneath my sensibilities, I am just serious about not understanding the part that I didn't perceive as "hunting", more as mindless "killing", that's all Mike. Also, all the tree hugging liberals in the UK got fox-hunting banned, which I always thought was an integral part of the fabric of the British countryside, and made for great paintings.... Country people never wanted it banned AND THE FOX ALWAYS STOOD A FIGHTING CHANCE OF GETTING AWAY!

Glyn



PS PLEASE tell me you are NOT serious about beagle hunting, one never know about Alabama!!!

[Jamo]

Good thread.

Glyn...the No. 7-type "hunt" you refer to is akin to folks buying Hummers, etc. for suburbia. Posers, plain and simple.

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by Jamo

...the No. 7-type "hunt" you refer to is akin to folks buying Hummers, etc. for suburbia. Posers, plain and simple.

Yeah - only worse. It's one thing to be profligate with money, another altogether with life. It's long been said there's no cheaper commodity on earth than life, and those kind of cretins only reinforce that perspective. They also cast long shadows of those of us who understand the ethics integral to hunting. While we have, and will continue, to beat back the lovely social picture of hunters as slovenly, dim-witted jackasses with guns, they make an awful lot of work for us and deserve all levels of contempt.



-Roger

[BeanCounter]

I'm mostly an upland game hunter. I'm probably out 30 of the 75 days that the season is open. I even hunt on the way home from work some times. I also raise Brittanys, have for 35 years. When not hunting I run my dogs on the national field trial circuit. I've had two National Champions and one of my dogs is in the Hall of Fame. My current dog is the winningest one hour trial dog in the history of the breed so he'll go into the Hall also. I guess I got that from my grandpa who raised Llewellyn setters for 60+ years.